05
Mar

Thanks so much to Robb Monn for the interview! Razor 18 was a superb shoegaze band from Washington DC. They were active in the early/mid 90s which was a great time for DC bands. As you’ll read they were contemporaries to Velocity Girl, The Ropers and more. Must have been a terrific time for an indiepop fan in DC.

The band released one 7″ during their time, the “High Intensity Noise” on Popfactory Records in 1994 (Robb tells me he hates the art for this record)

I had written about the band previously on the blog after finding their recordings on Soundcloud. Now I get to learn more details about this great band! Enjoy!

++ Hi Robb! Thanks so much for being up for this interview! How are you? Are you still involved with music?

I’m doing well! It is a sunny, windows-open kind of day here in Pasadena and that’s keeping my chin up.

Music is a big part of my daily life, but more of a private thing now… a practice. I play piano every day, and I spend a good bit of time building processes and effects that I use to make music. I mostly just play solo improvised pieces that make a lot of use of tape loops, looper pedals, and things like that.

And for the past year I’ve been making music with some folks from my hometown when I visit. Also all improvised, like ecstatic jazz.

++ Let’s go back in time. What are your first music memories? Do you remember what your first instrument was? How did you learn to play it? What sort of music did you listen to at home while growing up?

My first musical memories are from when I was really young. Two or three. My parents had a very good stereo and my favorite records were Mike Oldfield’s “Tubular Bells” and The Beatles “Sgt Peppers”. I can remember laying with my head near the speaker on our green rug with my eyes closed and just traveling into the space in the music. I took crazy amounts of medication during that time to prevent asthma attacks and I feel that my love for the psychedelic kind of music, music that was about certain sounds in based in that.

I played violin from age 8-10 through my school. And then I dropped it for alto sax at 10 years old, which I still play often. At first I had lessons through my elementary school, and then school band, and in high school jazz band. I was serious about sax and took private lessons and worked really hard at it. I wanted to go to school for jazz performance.

I was born in 1973 in a small town (pop 6000) in the middle of rural PA. So the music around me me was top 40 and country. We didn’t have cable or MTV, so it was a total music desert—it might be really hard to understand for people that didn’t live through it, but there was no way to know that there was any other music. There was a “classic rock” station from Baltimore called WGRX that sometimes we could hear in the car a few towns over. I convinced my dad to wire up an antenna on our roof for FM radio so that I could get it. There I fell in love with Bowie, Led Zeppelin, The White Album, and Pink Floyd. My uncle in Pittsburg would also let me tape his records when I visited and he gave me King Crimson, and, most importantly Jean Michelle Jarre’s “Oxygen” and “Equinoxe” and Vangelis’s “Spiral” on tapes, which I am still obsessed with. Then when I was maybe 13 I found another radio station called WHFS which was an “alternative rock” station and I was off to the races. REM, U2, The Replacements, Squeeze, The Smiths, and most importantly The Cure came to my ears.

I figured out that a newsstand a few towns over had SPIN magazine, and then when I was 16 I called the radio station at a college in Washington DC, which was 2 hours away, to ask where the good record store was. I started making covert trips to Vinyl In in Silver Spring, Maryland after school in my Honda and spending every penny that I had there.

An eclectic mix tape from my senior year of High School would have The Cure, Something of My Bloody Valentine’s Isnt Anything, something from Miles Davis’s Bitches Brew, The Smiths, Throwing Muses, The Pixies, some Vangelis.

++ Had you been in other bands before Razor18?

I was in a really good high school jazz band that played gigs, and then in college I was in a pro-level jazz ensemble. I played with Junction for a little while, which then became The Delta 72.

++ What about the other band members? Are there any songs recorded? 

Bill was in a band called Soft Pleasing Light and there is a split 7″ (I think) with them and Eggs, which was a popular DC band in the early 90s. Sarah had written and played her own songs for years and years. Ivan and our first drummer Greg were in a college cover band that played a bunch of gigs.

++ Where were you from originally?

I am from Waynesboro, PA. Sarah was from Washington DC, Ivan was from Croatia, Bill grew up in Boston, and the drummers: Greg:Indiana, Ben: Philadelphia, John: Louisville KY, and Tim Arlington, VA.

++ How was DC at the time of Razor18?

It was maybe the best possible music city and time that I can imagine. DC had been in decline as a city for a decade when I moved there in 1992. As in the population was going down every year… a very late stage white flight. Rent was cheap for apartments and for commercial places, so there were a lot of bookstores, cafes, record stores, and venues. I’d been going to the 930 since high school… the old one that was maybe big enough for 150 people, and that place was amazing. Before alt/indie really broke that’s where you’d see the touring bands like Ride, Lush, My Bloody Valentine, PJ Harvey, Throwing Muses, The Pixies… in a tiny little room. There was also the 15 minute club, DC Space, punk shows at St Stephen’s church basement. DC was full of people trying to make things work for themselves, lots of group houses with a shared mission, or a label, lots of band houses with a practice space in the basement. Fugazi was there, Bad Brains, lots of hardcore shows and history, which I loved. And when I get there there were some other things happening. The Lilys were in DC at the time, making singles, Teen Beat was releasing really good stuff. Unrest Imperial FFRR had just come out and was playing everywhere.

++ Were there any bands that you liked?

I loved Velocity Girl — before they signed with subpop they were doing something really radical. Archie Moore’s guitar sound was so enormous you could lose yourself. I loved the Lilys a lot, they played really fantastic shows… Archie was in that band, too. I have always been deeply committed to Fugazi since the first song I ever heard… their sound and their politics are incredible. Unrest was a huge band in DC at the time. Going to see the good local music was a religious thing for me… the idea that something wonderful was happening, that people were making something new, it was a real inspiration.

++ Were there any good record stores?

My girlfriend worked at Tower on George Washington University’s campus where I went to school. She was the indie buyer and they had really amazing records there. GO! Compact disks in Arlington was even better, and I went there every week to spend my paycheck. And Vinyl Ink had the deepest catalogue and their clerks weren’t snooty. You could go in there and tell them what you liked and they would load you up with things you didn’t know about.

++ Were there any other good bands in your area?

So many! There were too many great bands from DC to keep track of. So many good 7″ releases and we would get together and tape from each other’s collection.

++ How was the band put together? How was the recruiting process?

Ben put an ad in the city paper for a drummer and guitarist. Ivan and Greg answered. They had moved from Indiana and wanted to start a band. They were metalheads that had found Ride and The Pale Saints, and Lush and wanted to make music like that.

Ben was living in an insane house near American University with 13 other guys, including my best friend Matt from my hometown. Matt told me they were looking for a female lead singer and they played “the kind of music you like” and so I went up with my girlfriend Sarah to sit in. They hired her that day but didn’t want me. I convinced them a few weeks later.

++ Was there any lineup changes?

We had a lot of drummers. Greg moved away, and then we asked a high school friend Ben Azzara (capitol city dusters, junction, delta 72). Then John Weiss from Rodan drummed with us for a year or so, then Tim Soller through the end.

++ What instruments did each of you play in the band?

Sarah sang, Ivan and I played guitars, Ben bass and the drummers drummed.

++ How was the creative process for you? Where did you usually practice?

Ivan was a bit of a genius with songs. He wrote most of the chord progressions, then Sarah would write the words and melody, and Bill and I would figure out our parts. I always liked to write guitar parts for songs that were already written — I feel like I would make the *sound* of the song, that this was my part.

We practiced in the basement of the house near American U, then in Arlington in a group house, then in my house in Mount Pleasant. We practiced for 3-4 hours, 1-2 times a week.

++ What’s the story behind the band’s name?

We were having trouble agreeing on anything. Ben got obsessed with called the band Seizure 17 after a friend of his that had just had 17 literal seizures because of a brain injury. Ben was much more into very heavy and extreme music and was always trying to steer us that way. No one else liked it. I said “how about razor 18 instead of seizure 17?” and it stuck.

++ So I found a bunch of recordings of yours on Soundcloud. From what I understand they come from different recording sessions. How many were they?

We had three sessions. One at American University’s recording studio, one at Evil Genius — both of those with Rob Christensen from Eggs. Then we did one at my house with an ADAT setup and minimal equipment. Recording was really, really expensive for us. We were all broke and it cost a minimum of $250 a song to get a good recording, and then $500 to put out 7″s.

++ And these were recorded at the American University and Evil Genius Studios, most of them recorded by Rob Christensen. Can you tell me a little bit about each of these studios and how was working with Rob?

Rob didn’t like our band. We didn’t like his band. I felt like he was a total snob, to be honest. I saw him on the street maybe 15 years ago and we chatted for a while. He works at a really good public radio station in NYC now and seemed like a really nice guy. But back then it was oil and water. He was a good engineer, though — he was able to capture the guitar sounds to a much higher standard than it seemed like other studios were able to, which was important for us.

Studios then were pretty basic affairs. Rob was recording Labradford at American at he same time we were there. American had an EMS SYNTHI synth there and we used that on the P Street Beach track we recorded which was really fun… those were all over the early Stereolab tracks and we were obsessed with those.

++ Were these demo tapes sent to radio stations? Were they used for promotion by the press? Sold them at gigs? What did you do with them?

We cut a 7″ called P Street Beach with Queen Bee on the b-side. We planned two more and we wanted to do a regional tour. We were on a label called Popfactory run by a good friend of mine Josh Banks that had a few other bands on it. Josh sent the tapes out which is how we got played on John Peel.

++ You mentioned you had some 7″s in the works. What happened?

I graduated from college, Sarah and I broke up, Ivan had to finish a thesis and got really, really into Surf music. Then Bill graduated and started applying to PhD programs… it had run its course.

I mean. There had a been a lot of bands that had taken that next step around us for years. It didn’t seem like it was working out for most of them. Everyone doing shitty jobs and saving for short tours a few times a year and trying to recoup recording and pressing costs at merch tables. And the music changed around us. We were a really, really loud and energetic shoegaze band. I think the group that resembled our approach on stage the most was Adorable. We jumped around and made a racket and the sound was the thing. Music shifted in the scene to twee, to indie, to low-fi, to “cool.” We were not cool.

++ Those 7″s were already recorded? Did you already have the songs decided for them? What about a label to put them out?

Yeah — #2 was going to be Wake and Carrying Hostile and #3 was going to be La llorona and Temple. We recorded all the tracks for them.

++ I suppose that must have been frustrating, but did you ever think of posthumously releasing your songs?

No. I loved playing in that band — maybe more than any other band I’ve been in, and we were really good, especially at the end, but I didn’t look back. And when I got into self publishing I did put them out on my soundcloud.

++ My favourite song of yours is “P Street Beach”, wondering if you could tell me what inspired this song? What’s the story behind it?

I love that song. It was our first song. It is a tribute to Stereolab, whom we had recently seen in an in-store performance. Ivan starts that song with a direct lift of the Stereolab song “The Light that Will Cease to Fail” and then I clobber it with my best version of “French Disco” over top. Sarah’s vocals are a not so buried reference either with her “do do do” chorus. WIth our normal lack of restraint we blew out the chorus of it with big distorted MBV-style sounds.

Sarah and I lived and went to school in Foggy Bottom, a neighborhood in DC just south of Dupont Circle. Dupont, along with the West Village in NYC and the Casto in San Francisco were ground zero for gay liberation in the US and Dupont was still a very wonderful out-out gay enclave in the 90s. P st is in Dupont and where it meets Rock Creek there is a grassy park that goes down into the water… called P st beach. It was a very popular hookup spot for men and I think Sarah came up with the idea for the song after I got propositioned while we were walking by it one night.

++ If you were to choose your favorite Razor18 song, which one would that be and why?

I like La llorona. I love the words, the story of it — about a vengeful ghost who cries out at night over her dead children. I love how Sarah inhabited that personae singing it. I think the guitars on that song are really, really powerful and love the sound. It was my favorite song to play.

++ What about gigs? Did you play many?

We played the 930 a couple of times, the Black Cat a couple of times, the 15 minutes club, Artslab, we played at a local TV station but I never saw the show, we played some acoustic sets… maybe 10 shows?

++ And what were the best gigs that you remember? Any anecdotes you can share?

Our first Black Cat show was the best. I think that we opened for the Ropers. The place was packed. The Black Cat had just opened and everyone loved the venue. The 930 was great, but it was small, it was in downtown, and it smelled really, really bad. The Black Cat was a literal breath of fresh air. The stage was higher and the sound was perfect. I think we outdid ourselves that night, we dressed to the nines, and we closed with a 15 minute version of P Street Beach. That gig was better than anything else we ever played, people were blown away. The band was kind of done after that, to be honest.

++ And were there any bad ones?

Really bad!  We played a battle of the bands at a college after only a couple of rehearsals and it was terrible. We got 0 votes.

++ So I counted 8 original songs on Soundcloud. When you played live, did you use to play these 8? Or did you have more in your repertoire? Perhaps some covers?

We played all of these and we played a cover of It’s All Too Much by the Beatles. We had a few covers that we rehearsed but now I can’t remember any of them!

++ And as you mentioned, you played important clubs in the DC scene. Also shared gigs with some important bands from the time. Why do you think you didn’t get the same attention like I don’t know, The Ropers?

We were more popular than the Ropers in DC when we opened for them… I think that is ok to say. I guess we were not as committed and didn’t play as much. We were all in school at the time… and we all got good grades! I know that I was working full time, going to school full time, and playing in razor18. A lot of the people in bands we played with at the clubs had dropped out of school and had made the band the primary focus. We never did that. I don’t think we ever considered it. I didn’t want to get signed to Sub Pop– I figured it would ruin the band and ruin my life… and you know what? I know some folks that went that route and that is exactly what happened.

++ When and why did Razor18 stop making music? Were any of you involved in any other projects afterwards?

1996 sometime is when Ivan quit to focus all his energy on his surf band, The Space Cossacks. We had been fighting some before that.

I never played music with any of those folks again. I started a psychedelic jazz trio called The Julia Galaxy that played a lot of shows through 1999 in DC, and then I started an electro acoustic trio in NYC called Noumena, then another group called Ohler.

Bill played in a band called The Jealous Type for a while. Sarah married the drummer Ben Azzara and is now Sarah Azzara and she has done a few solo records that are very good.

++ Was there any interest from the radio? TV? You mentioned Peel played you?

We were on a public broadcast show in DC once and Peel played us twice. I think that is it!

++ What about the press? Did they give you any attention?

We got a review in Maximum Rock and Roll — they liked it. The DC city paper reviewed us a couple of times and called us “the loudest band in DC.”

++ What about fanzines?

Not that I know of. Just your blog!

++ Looking back in retrospect, what would you say was the biggest highlight for the band?

That Black Cat show I mentioned for sure. I just loved playing our songs and that performance was the highlight. I’ve never felt so comfortable and powerful as a performer before or since.

++ Aside from music, what other hobbies do you have?

I like photography and making prints, I’m a pretty serious film buff and love to go see films at reparatory film houses.

++ I’ve been to DC just a couple of times but I’d still love to ask a local. What do you  suggest checking out in your town, like what are the sights one shouldn’t miss? Or the traditional food or drinks that you love that I should try?

I lived in DC from 1992-1999 and have only been back a few times. I’m sorry to say that nearly everything about the city that I loved has gone. I’m sure that it is a fine place to live, but I strongly believe that DC, NYC and Boston have been very much wrecked by the late-90s to present trend of the very wealthy moving back into cities and driving up the rents so that the creative class has had to move out. When I moved there the internet as a conveyance of culture had barely started and you *needed* to live in a city to get exposure to culture– you simply couldn’t find the community, the books, the films, the art, the music anywhere else. It isn’t like that now, I guess.

But if you do find yourself in DC you should see if you can find:

  1. Pakistani food in Arlington, VA (just over the bridge) — look the least fancy place you can
  2. Vegetarian Ethiopian in Adams Morgan (18th street north of U in DC)
  3. The East Wing of the National Gallery
  4. The Rothko room at the Phillips Collection
  5. Go down to Rock Creek near Dupont — past P St Beach — it is very pretty

++ Anything else you’d like to add?

Nope! This was a lot of fun. Thanks for the interest in the music. It inspired me to listen to it all again and it is a very pleasant memory.

I hope you’re well and have a fine day.

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Listen
Razor 18 – P Street Beach (American University version)

01
Mar

Thanks again to Mark D for the interview! A week or so ago we were chatting about the superb Fat Tulips and I asked if he was keen on answering a few more questions about other bands he had been in. He said YES! and so here is the second interview with Mark, this time about the fantastic duo Confetti who I had written about on the blog some time ago. Enjoy!

++ Hi Mark! Thanks so much for being up for another interview! How are you? I see Peterborough United is fifth in League One, do you think there’s a chance to get to the Championship?

I think automatic promotion chance has gone but hopefully will make the play offs.

++ This time around I’d love to chat a bit about Confetti. I do have the records but I definitely know less details about the band compared to Fat Tulips. My first question though, is why did you call yourself David in this band?

I wanted to distance myself from the Fat Tulips so used my middle name instead. Simple as that!

++ How did the duo start? Where did you and Julie meet?

I was going out with Julie (aka Virginia) and we just ended up jamming and coming up with tunes. We were both fans of the Young Marble Giants and felt that nobody else had tried to do that restrained choked guitar sound since them so made that our sound.

++ Who chose the name Confetti for the band? Is there a story behind the name?

Can’t remember where name came from – probably Julie came up with it?

++ And why did you decide to be a duo? Why not a full band?

Wasn’t any need – wanted a minimal sound so less band members the better.

++ I have met Julie quite a few times thanks to the fact that she was on The Sunbathers as of late. She was previously in The Artisans too, a fantastic band. Wondering though, was Confetti the first band she was in?

I believe so.

++ And music-wise were you both on the same wavelength? Did you like the same bands? Or were there any disagreements?

No we were very much aligned with musical tastes

++ Something that I am curious about is that both Fat Tulips and Confetti were around the same time. Wondering about how you pick which songs would work on each band? Or perhaps there were some Confetti songs that ended up being played by Fat Tulips and vice versa?

No always kept them separate – all Confetti songs were restrained but could do what I wanted with Fat Tulips.

++ All of your songs were recorded at Sideways Sound in Attenborough. You had used this studio for some Fat Tulips releases as well. Wondering what you like about this studio in particular and if it was the one you liked the most?

Confetti only did two recording sessions ever. The studio was local and cheap and we knew the engineer well!

++ Confetti would find home in the same labels that the Fat Tulips released, Heaven, Sunday, Marineville and Vinyl Japan. Last time we talked about most of them but Marineville Records. Wondering how you started working with Andy Parker and how was your relationship with this label?

Never met Andy personally but did correspondence with him – was simply a case if he asked if we would do a record , we agreed a budget , we recorded it and sent him the tapes and he released it! Very simple!

++ With Confetti you also did quite a few covers. You did Josef K, Au Pairs and the Wedding Present. Were there more covers you used to play perhaps live?

I don’t think so – all bar one song was recorded . That was called Hardly and was set to be the next single but never got recorded.

++ Curious about the photos that appear on the artwork of the 7″s and the compilation. Where do they come from?

Matt from Fat Tulips took them I think – mostly around Nottingham station!

++ The band also appeared on many compilations during its time. You were on the legendary “The Waaaaaah! CD ‘ or the “123456 Road Runner” tape that included tons of terrific bands of the time. Wondering then, in the UK, which bands other than the Heaven bands, did you feel close to. Were there any bands you would have loved to play a gig with that you didn’t?

Heavenly were lovely and we played with them a couple of times. We also liked the band Earwig who we felt were closest to our sound.

++ Then there’s a song, “Who’s Big and Clever Now?” (Live)”, which I believe only appears on the “Teeny Poppers” tape on the French label Anorak Records. Where was this song recorded?

No idea!  Not even aware of that release!

++ Why did you gave the retrospective compilation the name “RetrospectivelE.P.” as it is clearly not an EP?

We just wanted to follow up on all the EP name themes and as it was a retrospective of our short career it kind of made sense

++ This compilation came out in 1994 on Vinyl Japan, the band was over by then. It includes 15 tracks. But I do wonder, if there are any other recordings or unreleased songs by Confetti?

No

++ Confetti didn’t play many gigs. Just five. And four of them were with The Fat Tulips. Do you remember where these five gigs happen?

A couple in Nottingham, and think one in Oxford? Maybe at the Fountain in London as well

++ And the one you played without the Fat Tulips, who did you support or supported you?  

Think was the Artisans?

++ Why was the band so short-lived? What happened? Why did you call it a day?

Me and Julie split up as a relationship and that was it

++ Did you and Julie collaborate ever again? Are you still in touch?

Only spoke to Julie a couple of times briefly after splitting- not spoken in 30 years now.

++ Your bands were quite involved with fanzines, but wondering if you ever got a chance to be featured on the music press?

Don’t believe Confetti ever did

++ Let’s start wrapping the interview. What would you say was the biggest highlight for Confetti?

Still think the first single is a minor classic- the second one was our attempt to be the Marine Girls !

++ And I forgot to ask that last time, what about the biggest highlight for you with the Fat Tulips?

I guess playing with Throw That Beat on tour in Germany

++ One last question, I have visited Nottingham a few times, but just for a day, kind of quickly… but I would love to go and explore more someday. Wondering as a local what you would recommend checking out? Any sights? Record stores? Any local foods or drinks that one shouldn’t miss?

Record shop wise Rough Trade easily the best. Nottingham Castle is great as is Djanogly Gallery at the University

++ Thanks again for everything! Anything else you’d like to add?

Thanks!

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Listen
Confetti – Whatever Became of Alice and Jane

18
Jan

Thanks so much to Carol Samways for the interview! This interview has taken quite a bit to happen, so very happy to finally publish it. I wrote about the Southampton band Whirlpool Heart many years ago. And finally I get to find out some more details about them!

++ Hi Carol! Thanks so much for being up for this interview! How are you? Are you still involved with music?

Regretfully I have been struggling with my mental health, & ADHD, over recent years, which has prevented me from pursuing my love of music. Prior to that I was getting together with a couple of other musicians, one a guitarist & one a singer, and working with them. On the rare occasion I am well now I am still very much inspired to sing, & want to get together with others to do so.

++ Let’s go back in time. What are your first music memories? Do you remember what was your first instrument? How did you learn to play it? What sort of music did you listen to at home while growing up?

My first music memories are listening to my parents records at home, jumping around to “ Sugar Sugar “, and dancing to their Bill Haley and the Comets album, in particular “ Rock Around the Clock “ & “ Shake Rattle and Roll “ ( happy days ) , the theme tune to “ White Horses “ and other black & white tv programs from my young childhood, such as “ Champion the Wonder Horse “ & “ Casey Jones “ ! , hearing songs on the radio, and the little records I had : ‘ The Owl & The Pussy Cat ‘/ ‘ Run Rabbit Run ‘, ‘ The Ink is Black The Page is White ‘ / ‘ Me & You & a Dog named Boo ‘ ( my favourite ) , & an instrumental interpretation of ‘ Peter and the Wolf ‘ ! . My first instrument was always my voice, as I sang & made up little songs at a very young age, but my first non vocal instrument was the recorder ! Which I learnt at school, at home, and using music books, when I was at First School. Growing up at home I listened to popular & easy listening music of the 60’s & 70’s played on the radio. Radio 2’s Breakfast Show, hosted by Terry Wogan, as the radio was always on in the kitchen in the mornings when I was having breakfast before going to school. I particularly loved “ Penny Lane “, ‘ The Carpenters ‘ ( “ Mr Post Man “ featured strongly from the radio in my childhood, and I remember singing along to it as I left the kitchen on my way to get ready to leave for school ), other ‘ Beatles ‘ tracks , Smokey Robinson, Neil Diamond ( also in my parents record collection ) of which ‘ Forever in Blue Jeans ‘ was a particular favourite of mine, which I always felt joyfully compelled to sing along to 😊 , along with David Dundes’s ‘ Blue Jeans ‘ ( not that I knew the singers name until hearing it on the radio in recent years ), Mary Hopkin ‘ Those were the days ‘ ( which had come out in the year I was born ! 😊 & I have a particular love of ), ‘ The Byrds’ ‘ Hey Mr Tambourine Man ‘, ‘ The Electric Light Orchestra ‘ in particular ‘ Mr Blue Skies ‘ 😊 The Kinks ‘ ( ‘ Waterloo Sunset ‘ / ‘ You Really Got Me Going ‘) Carole King ( I think my parents had the Tapestry album, but if not I certainly bought it myself in my late teens ) , James Taylor, ‘ Steve Harley and the Cockney Rebels ‘, ‘ The Moody Blues ‘ , ‘ Procol Harum ‘, Mott the Hoople ‘ , Squeeze’ , Billy Joel ( in particular ‘“ Just the Way You Are “ which I fell in Love with and “ She’s Always a Women “ ), Joan Armatrading ( swooning over “ Love and Affection “ ), Lynn Anderson ( “ I Beg Your Pardon “ ), ‘ The Doors ‘ ( “ Light My Fire” ), ‘ Elvis Castello & The Attractions’ , ‘. ‘ The Police ‘ , David Cassidy, David Essex, ( & watching ‘ The Partridge Family ‘ ) The Osmonds, The Jacksons and ‘ Abba ‘ ! I also loved ( & still do )the music of ‘ The Monkees ‘ loving to watch their tv shows. My Mum & Dad’s record collection included the ‘ Isley Brothers ‘ ( who’s music I really got into in my late teens, at ‘ Riverside ‘ 😊 ) ‘ Del Shannon ‘ ( one of my Mum’s records from her teenage years, which was one of her and my favourites, which I used to sing along to ) , Bobby Vee , ( featuring another favourite of mine, ‘ Rubber Ball ‘ ), Connie Francis, Paul Anchor, ‘ The Three Degrees ‘, ‘ Jimmy Cliff’ ( who’s music I rediscovered later. in my teens – ‘ I Can See Clearly ‘ helping me through some emotional times ) , ‘ The Detroit Spinners’ , ‘ The Three Degrees ‘ , ‘ Matt Monroe ‘ , ‘ Paul Robeson ‘, ‘ Caruso ‘ , ‘ John Denver ‘ ( who’s music touched me deeply & I loved ), ‘ Glen Campbell ‘ ( who’s songs will always remind me of my Mum, because it was one of his album’s in particular she used to listen to a lot and I loved, & still do ) , Barry Manilow was another favourite of my Mum’s. Also in my parents record collection were Roberta Flack ‘ , ‘ The New Seekers ‘ ( featuring one of my favourite ever songs ‘ Morningtown Ride ‘ ), Nat King Cole, Simon and Garfunkel, Johnny Cash, Dolly Parton, Joan Baez and Bob Dylan ( the later three particular being favourites of my Dad’s ) , Val Doonican, soundtracks of musicals, such as ‘ South Pacific’ & ‘ The King and I ‘ , along with the Top of the Pops albums of each year throughout the ‘70’s, into the ‘80’s with their scantily clad glamour model covers ! , Salsa music, and Christmas albums of Vera Lynn ( which I loved. Always heralded the coming of Christmas as my Mum would have it on while writing her Christmas cards. Filled me with Christmas joy, and I sung along to ) and Carol’s from a couple of Cathedrals.

My Dad was a dedicated watcher of ‘ Top of The Pops ‘ so I grew up watching that as well.

I also enjoyed going to the theatre to see Musicals with my Mum & Dad as a child, and the music from ballets, of which we saw a few. After the records I was given when very young I was given the soundtrack of the film ‘ Oliver ‘ ( songs of which I loved, & again I would sing along to ) , the soundtrack of Disney’s ‘ The Aristo Cats ‘ ( which I loved, singing along to “ Everybody wants to be a Cat ! “ ) , & ‘ Mary Poppins ‘. I also loved the theme tune music for ‘ Little House on the Prairie ‘ and ‘ The Walton’s ‘ !

I also enjoyed the music of ‘ The Amazing Darts ‘ ( which was played at the holiday camp evenings we went to, as well as watching on ‘ Top of the Pops ‘ ) . The music of Elvis Presley was also a big part of my life in the ‘70’s & I loved watching his films when I was a child & in my teens.

I also remember “ I love the sound of breaking glass “ by Nick Lowe, on the radio, and Bill Withers’ “ Lovely Day “ which I love 💗 ,. I’ve loved ‘ , ‘ Blondie ‘ since hearing “ Heart of Glass “ being played through our wall from our neighbour’s eldest daughter ! Debbie Harry was my greatest female idol, later followed by Chrissie Hynde, & Kate Bush. The first record my Dad bought me when I was a teenager was by ‘ Musical Youth ‘( which would not have been my choice ! ) . The first cassette tape I bought ( for the brand new cassette player I bought from selling my dolls ) was “ Grease “ having loved the film when it came out when I was 9.

In my middle school years there was also the Two Tone scene, and my love of the music by ‘ The Selector ‘, ‘ The Body Snatchers ‘ & ‘ The Beat ‘ remained with me for life.

My favourite at family weddings was always “ The Twist “ , and at Middle School discos Madness’ “ Baggy Trousers “, & Abbas “ Dancing Queen ‘“ always got me up dancing.

I also liked music from other decades, the 20’s, 30’s, 40’s, 50’s, & ‘60’s. I loved/love ‘ Someone to Watch over Me’ , ‘ Smoke gets in my eyes’ , ( two songs that have always touched me deeply ) & ‘ At Last ‘ in particular Etta James’ version, what a Voice ! & The Glen Miller Band.

In my first year of Secondary School I bought the obligatory ‘ Rio ‘ tape as dictated by my peers, I never felt comfortable with that & never again bought any music I wasn’t drawn to myself, as I tended away from the more Commercialised music of the ‘80’s.

At 12 I was introduced to the music of my Mum’s teenage years, from attending the musical “ Rock-A-Billy Son of Heaven “ , finding the songs in the sound track prior to the show particularly engaging, & finding a love of Billy Fury in particular.

Then when I was 13 I was totally mesmerised by ‘ The Kids from Fame ‘ ! buying all their albums & going to see them in concert ( I can’t claim this was the first concert I went to as I also have vague recollections of seeing a glam rock children’s band who’s members were in animal costumes ! doing ‘ Tiger Feet ‘ at Southampton Guildhall ! ) . During my Secondary School years I loved ‘ Stay Cats ‘ “ The First Picture of You “ by the Lotus Eaters, songs by Matt Bianco, Depeche Mode, The Cars, Crowded House 💗 , Roxey Music, ‘ The Bangles ‘, ‘Roman Holiday ‘, ‘ Coast to Coast’, ‘ The Bluebells’, ‘ The Style Council ‘, ‘ Dexy’s Midnight Runners’, ‘ OMD ‘, ‘ Fun Boy Three ‘ , ‘ Hall & Oats ‘ , Kirsty McCall, Billy Bragg, ‘ Bronski Beat ‘ ( being totally blown away by “ Small Town Boy “ ), ‘ Sade ‘, ‘ Tracey Chapman ‘ ( won over as soon as I heard “ Fast Car “ ) ‘ Tasman Archer ‘ ( “ Sleeping Satellite “ ), ‘ The House Martin’s ‘, ‘ Yazoo ‘ , ‘ Altered Images ‘ , Cindy Lauper, Lionel Richie, ‘ The Belle Stars ‘ , Godley and Creme’s “ Under your thumb “, ‘ The Pogues ‘ ( who’s music I later loved skipping & swinging around to at various Hammy Nights ), Alison Moyet , ‘ Wings ‘, Paul McCartney, Madonna’s “ Border Line “ album, but not so much her later stuff, & ‘ The Thompson Twins’. I also loved Giorgio Moroda & Phil Oakey’s “ Electric Dreams” 💗( which still touches my heart as profoundly as the first time I heard it ) , ‘ Aha ‘, Michelle Shocked, and ‘ The Beautiful South ‘……….I also got in to Jazz, particularly Sarah Vaughn, Ella Fitzgerald, Nat King Cole, Louie Armstrong, Duke Ellington,and the music of Bill Evans ( introduced to me by my Dad ) . I loved Ray Charle’s ‘ Hit the Road Jack ‘ ( from a young age, hearing it on the radio ) and ‘ What’I Say ‘, ……‘ Martha and the Vandellas ‘ ( “ Jimmy Mack “ ) , ‘ The Velvelettes ‘ ( “ Needle in a Haystack “ ) , Be-Bop, & Swing, and Georgie Fame’s “ Yeah Yeah “, Peggy Lee ( “ Fever “ ) , Louis Jordan’s “ There Ain’t Nobody Here but us chickens “ ! 😁 “ The Girl from Impanema “ , & other Latin American music, Sam Cooke, ‘ The Drifters ‘, Brenda Lee, Connie Francis, Frank Sinatra, Bobby Darrin, Buddy Holly , Dione Warwick, Gladys Knight & The Pips , ‘ , Ben E King, Marvin Gaye, Van Morrison ( “ Brown Eyed Girl “ ), & Don McLean ( “Vincent “ ).

It was Jazz, and the great artists Sarah Vaughan, Ella Fitzgerald, and later Aretha Franklin who really inspired me to be a singer seriously.

I fell in lust with ‘ Scriti Politi ‘ who’s music caught me unawares one morning when I was listening to the radio on my headphones.‘ 💗 From there I moved on to ‘ UB40 ‘ ( my first London gig was to see them at Brixton Academy, despite my Mum’s fears, despite it being several years after the Uprising. It was also my first encounter with Brixton, I loved that the fruit & veg stalls were still open at 9 O’clock at night ! & I was swept away by the beauty and atmosphere on going into the Academy) . By this time I was listening to Ranking Miss P on Radio 1, totally immersed myself in reggae, and obviously Bob Marley, using his songs to audition for the College play whilst at 6 th Form College. At 6th Form College I was introduced to ‘ Everything But The Girl’s ‘ “ Eden “ album, Carmel ‘ Talking Heads ‘ “ And She Was “ , ‘ The Mighty Wah ! ‘ , and was re-introduced to Georgie Fame’s music , from music played by the Upper Sixth students in our art studio. I’ve also always loved Boogie Woogie piano. In 1986 I wanted to experience the Jazz music scene as depicted by the film “ Absolute Beginners “, walking out from the vibrance of that film into a dark, damp, Southampton town centre, on a Friday night, to find a barren emptiness, absolutely nothing was happening at all ! I was then introduced to more great music at 6th Form Discos, from ‘ The Clash ‘ ( “ Rock the Casbah “ ) ‘ The Cure ‘ ( “ Love Cats “💗 which encapsulated the music style that I most enjoyed ), ‘ Lloyd Cole and The Commotions ‘ ( “ Lost Week- End “ ) ‘ Aztec Camera ‘ ( “ Oblivious “ 😊 ) ‘ Echo and The Bunnymen ‘ , ‘ The B52s ( “ Love Shack “ ) ‘ Siouxisie and The Banshees ‘, name a few, so loving the vibrance and energy of the songs/ music bands. I also re-visited my love of 50’s & 60’s music, becoming more aware of motown, and enjoying the music of Nina Simone, Richie Valance ( “ La Bamba “ ) ( who’s life story film left me in tears, as did “ The Buddy Holly Story “, & “ The Glen Miller Story “ ) and back to Jazz with Humphrey Littleton & Helen Shapiro.

Not long after “ Absolute Beginners “ I saw “ Pretty in Pink “ which introduced me to ‘ The Psychedelic Furs ‘ 😊 . From 6th Form College I was introduced to the wonders of Southampton’s alternative night life scene, starting with Riverside, where I loved to dance to Aretha Franklin’s “ Say a Little Prayer “ , Chris Montez’s “ The More I See You “, Mel Torme’s “ Comin’ Home Baby “ , Jackie Wilson, ‘ The Jackson Five’, and Northern Soul. I’d just started going to “ Alternative Night “ at Riverside, favouring the music of DJ Neil, who played Louie Jordan’s “ There Ain’t Nobody Here but us chickens “ 😉, rather than DJ Hammy at the time ! when it was shut down 💔 Then there was “ Stitch Up “ and “ Get Smart “, the local skiffle bands who brought my friend Eileen and I much Joy & excitement 😊, which took me to the early recordings of Elvis at ‘ Sun Records ‘ , ‘ Bobby Darin ‘ , & further back to the Deep Blues of Bessie Smith & Robert Johnson. At this stage I was very much inspired by the works of Duke Ellington, as far as singing was concerned. I also got into Rock-a-Billy music, as my best friend at the time was a Rock-A-Billy, and from there I was also introduced to Psycho-Billy through her sister and her boyfriend. Then “ Fairground Attraction “ took me to my first band audition.

When Riverside was closed down Neil and Hammy moved to ‘ Barbarella’s ‘, the second coolest night club in Southampton ( Riverside was the first ) . When I first went it was for the music of Neil, but when he left I began to Love the music that ‘ Hammy ‘ played, some just because I loved it anyway, such as ‘ ‘ Martha and The Muffins ‘ “ Echo Beach “, ‘ The Doors ‘ ( “ Light My Fire “ ), ‘The Cure ‘, ‘ The Buzzcocks ‘ ( “ Falling in Love With Someone “ ) ,‘ The Inspiral Carpets ‘ , ‘ Susie & the Banshees ‘, and ‘ The Waterboys’ but other’s because I grew in to them from staying, throwing myself around, on the dance floor to the likes of ‘ The Dead Kennedys ‘ and ‘ Husker Du ‘ to avoid feeling awkward standing around the side. I also came to love ‘ Pixies ‘ at this time, as well as ‘ The House of Love ‘, ‘ The Wonder Stuff ’ , ‘ The Levellers ‘, ‘ Blur ‘ , ‘ Carter USM ‘ , ‘ The La’s ‘ , ‘ Ride ‘, ‘ The Happy Mondays’ , ‘ The Sundays’ , ‘ The Darlin Buds ‘, ‘ Kitchens of Distinction ‘ , ‘ The Primitives ‘ , ‘ The The ‘ ( “ Uncertain Smile “ & “ This is The Day “ 💗 ) , ‘ New Model Army ‘ , ‘ New Order ‘ , ‘ The Undertones ‘, ‘ Joy Division ‘ , ‘ The Fall ‘ , ‘ The Stone Roses ‘ , ‘ The Charlatons ‘, ‘ The Violent Femmes ‘ 💗 , ‘ The Jesus and Mary Chain ‘, ‘ The Sundays ‘, ‘ 10,000 Maniacs ‘, tracks by ‘ The Rolling Stones ‘ and David Bowie ( in particular “ Suffragette City “ !

) , more music by “ The Stranglers”, ‘ Teenage Fan Club’ , “ The Mighty Lemon Drops “ , “ The Mission “ , ‘ Dinosaur Junior ‘, REM ‘ ( “ It’s the end of the World ( as we know it “ ) , ‘ Iggy Pop ‘, ‘ The Skatalites ‘, ‘ Toots and the Maytels ‘, the impassioned ‘ Free Nelson Mandela ‘ by Special AKA, being re-introduced to ‘ Echo & The Bunnymen ‘, & the music of ‘ The Kinks ‘. My Star song being The Waterboys’ “ The Whole of the Moon “

……… and the list went on. I was actually at Hammy’s night, at Thursdays ( which replaced ‘ Barberrela’s, and we went to on Wednesdays ! ) when it was announced that Nelson Mandela had been released, and what Celebration we felt that night, dancing to the aforementioned song ! 😊 I was also introduced to further albums by ‘ Everything But the Girl ‘ , ‘ The Marine Girls ‘ & solo ventures by Tracey Thorn & Ben Watt, ‘ Deacon Blue’ & ‘ Prefab Sprout ‘, & ‘ All About Eve ‘ ( Martha’s Harbour ‘ stole my heart ) – The later three through TOTP’s. I got more into the music of Kate Bush ( ‘ Under the Ivy ‘ being my all time favourite Kate Bush song ) , enjoyed the music of ‘ Then Jerico ‘, & ‘ Big Country ‘ & later ‘ The Indigo Girls ‘ 💗Also became more aware of the richness of ‘ World Music ‘ ……… & So I reached the age of 21 ! Grown up, not really, and there was certainly a great array of music I was exposed to & loved over the next 30 plus years ! but I guess I should leave it there for now ! I’m sure there are many that I’ve already missed from the first 21 years !

++ Had you been in other bands before Whirlpool Heart? If so, how did all of these bands sound? Are there any recordings?

I was in a band called “ Rodney and the Plonkers “ ! primarily as the backing singer, but I did get to solo on Fats Domino’s “ Blueberry Hill “. The music was a combination of covers, ‘ The Everly Brothers ‘ , ‘ The Beatles ‘, and ‘ Dire Straits ‘ ( not a band who’s music I enjoyed 😖 ) and their own songs, which I guess would be described as soft rock/ Middle of the road ( not really my cup of tea but I was not part of the decision making or writing in this band. Just did as I was told, or not as the case may be – I wasn’t very good at harmonising & kept singing the lead singers parts ! 🤦🏻‍♀️ much to his annoyance !, so I didn’t last long in that band, but I did get my first experience of gigging, which I loved 😊 ).

I think there were recordings of the band, but I’m not sure if any featured me singing. I was just covering the lead singer’s wife’s maternity leave.

++ Where were you from originally?

Southampton.

++ How was Southampton at the time of Whirlpool Heart? Were there any bands that you liked? Were there any good record stores? Or what about the pubs or venues to go check out up and coming bands?

I was from Southampton.

Back in the day, during the 80’s there was quite a divided cultural scene in Southampton, the main stream culture being that of Casuals ( known as ‘ Kevin’s and Traceys ‘ ) who followed a certain style of dress, sticking to the more commercial music on offer & being closed to other musical styles. Southampton was quite a prejudiced place at the time if you deviated from the norm. I had abuse shouted at me due to the way I dressed a couple of times, and as a girl alone & even in a couple it was not advisable to go to certain pubs ( local pubs & the more mainstream City Centre pubs ) all, usually male, heads would turn towards us as we walked in , and abusive comments would be made. However, for those with more independent thought, there was the underground/alternative scene, which I was so excited to discover in my mid teens. Things did improve, generally, in the ‘90’s , but I relished being part of the minority clique. The minority was made up of lots of different sub cultures, Punks, Goths, Rock-A-Billies, Psycho-Billies, Mods, Indie Kids, Northern Soulers …… a great coming together of like minded people who appreciated music, all united by our draw away from the established ‘ norm ‘ , and I loved it all 😊 . All of societies misfits united, I had found my cultural home. The underground scene in Southampton was low key, but it was vibrant and inclusive, supplemented by the music scene at Portsmouth/Southsea & many trips to London 😊 The places to be were ‘ The Joiners Arms ‘ ( pub and renowned music venue for up & coming bands on the national music circuit, many bands that become massive later in their careers played the Joiners when they were starting out as touring gigging bands )‘ Riverside ‘ ( one of Southampton’s old floating bridges turned into a Night Club ) sadly closed & burnt down before ‘ Whirlpool Heart ‘ though, ‘ Thursdays ‘ ( on a Wednesday ! only ! avoid any other night ! ) which was previously ‘ Barberellas ‘ ( check out ‘ DJ Hammy Club History on Facebook, & DJ Hammy on Cloudmix ) , ‘ Goblets’ ( pub & music venue ), ‘ Bogarts ‘ ( pub where Hammy sometimes DJ’d ), ‘ The Cliff ‘ , ‘ Raffles ‘ ( Night Club ), ‘ Aggie Greys ‘ ( pub/night club ) , ‘ The West Indian Club ‘ , ‘ The Crown & Sceptre ( pub & gigs ), ‘ Southampton Guildhall ‘ ( for bigger bands ), ‘ The Maple Leaf ‘, ‘ Marshall’s ‘ , ‘ The Onslow ‘, ( Blues bands mainly at the time ) , ‘ The Frog and Frigget ‘, ‘ The Canute ‘, ‘ The Albion ‘, ‘The Hobbit ‘ , ‘ The Alexander ‘, all pretty much pubs and music venues back in the day. Southampton Pier had a mini revival, for the Rock-Billy scene, in the 80’s, but this was before ‘ Whirlpool Heart’. There was also ‘ The London Hotel ‘ for a late night hang out. Actually looking back, considering we were the minority we were extensively catered for across the City, don’t think we appreciated that at the time as we always seemed part of such a small scene & felt under provided for in comparison to the mainstream night club nights which were considered ‘ cattle markets ‘ . Those really were the days 😊 considering Southampton applied to be a City of Culture, but it doesn’t have a scene like it used to ( although I’m guessing the young people must have an underground scene & venues of their own, that I’m not aware of ) . Everything seems so commercial and prescribed these days, although ‘ The Joiners ‘ is still standing & a respected music venue after all these years, despite facing many crisis’ over the years. I’m sure there are others that I don’t recollect that Colin & Darren will have contributed to this list.

There was a thriving local music scene at the time of ‘ Whirlpool Heart ‘ with my favourites being ‘ Up Balloon Up ‘( Indie punk ) , & ‘ Space Hopper ‘ ( fronted by our friend Dennis Marfy, who gave it a ‘ Psychedelic Furs ‘ sound ).

‘ Weasels ‘ was the go to second hand record store & there was ‘ HMV ‘ & ‘ Our Price ‘. There was also a little ‘ Virgin Records ‘ store for a while.

++ How did you all meet? How was the recruiting process?

I was introduced to Colin by one of my best friends at the time, Christine Webb, at Barbarella’s, our then favourite night club. When I came to choose to drop out of college, as we were walking home from Barbarella’s one Thursday morning Colin asked me what I was going to do instead. I said I wanted to sing. Colin had been in various bands at that point, and was looking to start up a new band so offered me the opportunity to audition.

If I remember rightly Darren was the boyfriend of a girl Colin worked with at the time, and I first met him when he came along to jam with us. Likewise our second base player, Dan, was the boyfriend of a girl Colin was friends with.

++ How was the creative process for you? Where did you usually practice?

Colin was the main writer. Colin created the music on his guitar & wrote the lyrics initially. We also used a poem from a selection given us by my friend at the time, Jo Lampard, called “ The Lane Green “. Colin encouraged me to contribute with the lyrics, which I came up with listening to his music, “ Flights of Fancy “ being one of mine. Lyrically I just wrote what came in to my head as I listened to Colin’s music, although at times my lyrics would have been influenced by my feelings for Colin, or my appreciation of life & the Seasons ( like the “ November Song “ ) . Colin programmed the drum machine & we did have a drummer, Mark Doncaster, for a short period of time. Darren, & later Dan, came up with the bass lines as we jammed together. I tended to follow Colin’s guitar playing, or the bass line, with the singing.

We mainly practiced in Colin’s room, wherever he was living at the time, although we did use a run down rehearsal room above an old pub for a while when Mark was drumming with us.

++ What’s the story behind the band’s name? There’s a Wild Swans connection, right?

Yes, the ‘ The Wild Swans ‘ was one of Colin’s favourite bands & the name “ Whirlpool Heart “ was his inspiration from their song of the same name. Prior to that we had been called ‘ Insight ‘, again from Colin’s inspiration from his deep regard for ‘ Joy Division ‘, but apparently there was a band of the same name in the USA, so we had to change. Both names were jointly decided on after Colin’s initial suggestions.

++ Who would you say were influences in the sound of the band?

That’s more one for Colin to answer. ‘ Joy Division ‘, ‘ Wild Swans ‘ & ‘ The Chameleons ‘ I guess. Maybe ‘ The House of Love ‘ as well. I was inspired by the jazz greats, Sarah Vaughan, Aretha Franklin, Brenda Lee, Kate Bush, ‘ All About Eve ‘, Tracey Thorn from ‘ Everything But the Girl ‘ , but I can’t claim to sound like any of those singers or have the vocal talent or ability of those that inspired me. I just sang because I liked singing.

++ Also during your time there were some great bands around! Wondering if you had any favourite indiepop bands then? Also any obscure bands that you’d recommend?

My favourites were ‘ Everything But the Girl ‘, ‘ The Cure ‘, ‘ The House of Love ‘, ‘ 10,000 Maniacs ‘ , ‘ Kitchens of Distinction ‘, ‘ The Cranberries ‘, ‘ Cranes ‘, ‘ Buzzcocks ‘, ‘ Even as We Speak ‘ , ‘ Pixies ‘ ,‘ Violent Femmes ‘, ‘ The Go-Betweens ‘, ‘ Aztec Camera’ , ‘ Nirvana ‘, ‘ Catherine Wheel’, ‘ REM ‘ the songs featured on “ This Mortal Coil “, and of course the ‘ The Wild Swans ‘ from Colin.

++ Being in different compilations and all, how come there was never a proper release by your band? There was no labels interested? That’s hard to believe!

There was one record label, a , new at the time, German label called “ Pop Goes On “ ( if I remember rightly ), who were very keen to put a record out of our music, but by the time we went into a recording studio to do the tape we had our new bass player Dan playing with us, and the music was heavier. When they received the tape it was too heavy for them as they were after a more jangly pop sound, and my voice was too low in the mix for their liking. Regretfully I was too stubborn to be willing to record it again, wanting to be true to our sound, but realistically we couldn’t afford to go into a recording studio again, so we lost that opportunity.

We also missed out on being on the same fanzine tape as the “ Manic Street Preachers “ before they became well known.

++ So as there was no proper releases, I’m wondering, how many songs were recorded? Perhaps you did sell some demo tapes?

Only four songs were recorded professionally, but I’ve still got tapes of our own recordings. No, we didn’t sell any demo tapes. Didn’t even think of it, would have just given tapes to those interested.

++ Is it possible to do a demography?

I don’t think so now, after all these years. I certainly couldn’t. I can’t even remember the titles of all the songs we did. I can’t even remember the first song we did. There was “ Too Late Now”, “ The Ghost of S.A.I.F “, “ The Lane Green “, “ Flights of Fancy “, “ Walls Spin Around “, and a handful of other songs, the names of which escape me now. I have got some paperwork at my flat, but I don’t know when I’ll get round to look at it.

++ How do you end up on the Turquoise Trees compilation tape with two songs (“Too Late” & “Walls Spin Around”)? It was released in Bliss Aquamarine, in America!

Was Turquoise Trees one of Steve Genge’s fanzine tapes ? If so, I don’t know how he first came to hear our music, maybe was at one of our gigs.

If not then I expect the fanzine writer that put out Turquoise Trees got the songs from Steve, or corresponded with me & I would have sent them a tape.

++ The other compilation appearance of yours is in the “Seahorses” tape which was released by the Red Roses For Me fanzine. How did this come about? And how was your relationship with fanzines in general? Did you read lots? Was Whirlpool Heart featured on some of them?

We ended up on the “ Seahorses “ tapes due to Steve Genge liking our music, but as I said, I can’t remember how that came about. We did a gig with a Portsmouth band, “ The Windmills “ I think they were called, at The Joiners. Steve may have attended that gig as he lived near Portsmouth, at Porchester. I certainly remember him attending a gig we did at “ The Railway Inn “ in Winchester, and we became friends following his interest in the band.

++ You also participated in the Ambition Records compilation “Bobby Stokes Salutes The Fall Of Manchester” covering Joy Division’s “She’s Lost Control”. Why did you choose to cover this song?

We did two Joy Division covers , “ Insight “ & “ She’s Lost Control “ . We had to do Joy Division as Colin held them in the highest esteem and was profoundly taken with their music. I loved singing those Joy Division songs. The choice of songs would have been Colin’s.

++ Ambition Records was from your hometown, right? Perhaps Mark Pearson from Ambition a regular at your gigs?

Yes, Ambition Records was from our hometown.

No, I’m not sure Mark attended any of our gigs, he hated my voice, finding it monotone, but we became very good friends.

++ I think my favourite song of yours might as well be “Walls Spin Around”, wondering if you could tell me what inspired this song? What’s the story behind it?

That’s one for Colin to answer.

++ If you were to choose your favorite Whirlpool Heart song, which one would that be and why?

I can’t even recall the name of my favourite “ Whirlpool Heart “ song. Of those I can my favourite was “ Flights of Fancy “, probably bias because I wrote the lyrics of my favourite songs.

++ What about gigs? Did you play many?

We played a few gigs.

++ And what were the best gigs you remember? Any anecdotes you can share?

Too long ago to remember our best gigs.

I remember our last ever gig I sang as I was coming down with glandular fever but I thought my voice sounded pretty good on an intake of red wine mixed with dark rum ! Actually thought I sang the best I’d ever sang at a gig that night, but I wrecked my voice & couldn’t talk afterwards. I believe it was at a Birthday celebration for one of Colin’s friend’s.

I also had glandular fever when I sang at the professional recording for “ Pop Goes On “ , which wasn’t ideal.

I remember one of our first gigs, at the “ Joiner’s Arms “ I was so nervous I couldn’t move my legs & one of our friends had to lift me down from the stage at the end.

I preferred doing gigs where there was a stage.

We probably did most of our gigs at the “ Joiner’s “, supporting other bands. We played at a charity All Dayer there, and another fundraising event for one of Colin’s friends.

We also played at a pub in the village of Warsash, where Colin worked at the.

++ And were there any bad ones?

Indeed there were.

At one, I can’t remember if it was our gig at “ The Railway Inn “ in Winchester, I think it was, or the gig at Warsash, the equipment packed up part way through a song, Colin stopped playing but I carried on singing.

We played at an IBM ( where our bass player Dan worked at the time ) event, and the inflatable we were playing under deflated down on to us !

I would say our worst gig was at an outdoor All Dayer in a pub garden in Bevois Valley. I couldn’t hear the instruments on the monitors, so struggled to sing along with them.

There was also a gig when my nerves got the better of me and spoiled my singing.

I remember how difficult it was to sing live without any monitors.

++ When and why did Whirlpool Heart stop making music? Were you involved in any other bands afterwards?

I think we stopped making music in 1995, or 1994.

I think Dan ( our second bass player ) had left the band by then, so Colin & I were back to being a Duo, but as our relationship broke down so did the band, we weren’t really working on the songs any more.

Colin went on to be in another band further down the line, and I believe Darren did too, and I think Darren produced a lot of his own material. I don’t think Dan did. I just went on to working with individual guitarists, as duo’s, but nothing long standing or committed as “ Whirlpool Heart “.

++ Has there been any Whirlpool Heart reunions?

No.

++ Was there any interest from radio? TV?

No.

++ What about the press? Did they give you any attention?

No, only fanzines, we weren’t really that well known.

++ Looking back in retrospective, what would you say was the biggest highlight for the band?

For me it was playing gigs, although I loved working on the music with Colin & the boys as well.

I guess the biggest highlight was being offered the opportunity to put out a record with “ Pop Goes On “.

++ Aside from music, what other hobbies do you have?

I love dancing & gardening when I’m well enough. Also used to read, was into Spiritual development, writing & studying, but since not managing with my mental health I don’t really do anything. I spent most of the earlier years of my son’s life enjoying doing things with him, going out to places, and took up kick boxing with him, but I can’t afford to do those things any more.

++ Never been to Southampton, so I want to know what would you suggest them doing here, like what are the sights one shouldn’t miss? Or the traditional food or drinks that you love that I should try?

I’d say go to the “ Joiner’s Arms “ in St.Mary’s for live music. A venue that hosted many a band that went on to make it big, like “ Oasis “ when they did the national venues in their early days, but still supports local bands.

The Greedy Flea at the Mercantile and Flea, in Bitterne, once a month for Hammy night.

The Art House in the City Centre is also a cool venue to go to, and veggie fare.

For those interested in history I’d recommend the Tudor House Museum, and Southampton Sea City Museum.

In September the “ Music in the City “ event, that hosts a variety of bands at various locations around the town centre for free is a good event, and there are periodically other live events in the City Centre and parks.

For those into art there’s Southampton Art Gallery.

For those into activities there’s the outdoor ski slope at Southampton Sports Centre, for skiing & donutting, or Woodmill for kayaking in their pool or along the River Itchen.

Surrounding areas, a train or bus ride away, are the New Forest, including Exbury Gardens, Beaulieu Palace House, historical Bucklers Hard, river boat rides, riverside walks, forest walks, Lymington Quay and Lido with it’s inflatable obstacle course, open top bus tours, & the New Forest Show, in the Summer.

Historical Portsmouth, with Lord Nelson’s flagship “ The Victory “ and the remains of “ The Mary Rose “.

I’d highly recommend a ferry ride over to the Isle of Wight, where you can visit Queen Victoria’s holiday home “ Osborne House “, see the beautiful thatched village & Chine in Shanklin, and the coloured sands at Alum Bay.

No food & drink traditional to Southampton that I know of. Traditional food of England eaten here though include full English breakfast, fish’n’chips, pie & chips, sausage & mash, ham, egg, & chips, bacon butties, egg roles, Scotch eggs, egg & cress sandwiches, & roast dinners. Best to go to a pub that does home cooked meals, like The Dolphin at St.Denys, The Art House, in town, for vegi/vegan roasts on a Sunday, or go to Colin’s for a traditional roast ! . Traditional puddings include steamed sponges with jam or syrup topping, bread & butter pudding, spotted dick, jam roly poly, rice pudding, semolina pudding, and trifle, blackberry & apple pie ( in blackberry season ), apple pie & custard, and apple or apricot crumble. A lot of our traditional food has virtually died out, so you’d be hard pushed to find some of the foods I’ve referred to as dinning in Southampton has become much more cosmopolitan and chains have taken over a lot of places.

Traditional drink to the area would be Bitter ( by the pint ) or tea ( & biscuits ). I’d also recommend trying out the Real Ales at micro breweries such as the “ Dancing Man “. Other pubs I’d recommend are “ The South Western Arms “ in St.Denys , and “ Overdraft “ drinking establishment, in Shirley, for craft beer & ciders, & DJs certain nights of the week & some ‘ Take Overs “.

++ Anything else you’d like to add?

My favourite Wild Swans song is “ Archangels “, which I absolutely adore.

My son, at the age of 16 ( five years younger than I was ) has now played The Joiners, on the same stage as Ed Sheeran.

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Listen
Whirlpool Heart – Walls Spin Around

03
Jan

Thanks so much to Andy Bennette for the interview! I wrote about this great 80s Bedford band some time ago on the blog. Late last year Andy got in touch and was keen to fill in the blanks, tell more details about C-Saim. And I was not going to let that opportunity pass. Now time for you to enjoy this great interview!
Also check out the band’s Facebook page and Instagram account!

++ Hi Andy! Thanks so much for being up for this interview! How are you? Are you still involved with music?

Hi, it’s always a pleasure.   The last couple of years I have been more musically active but before that I had been exercising my creativity in other ways away from the music industry.

++ Tell me a bit more about your current project Bennette! Where can one listen to the music? And how different or similar would you say is is to C-Saim?

Bennette is a recent project to release a few new songs as well as some older material re-recorded.  Ii’s on the usual streaming platforms for anyone who’s interested and I am hoping to get more content on there later in the year.  In terms of style, I suppose it has similarities to C-Saim but as it’s been written years later and recorded with my added experience in studio production the end result is more dynamic and full.

I always felt the recordings we did as C-Saim were never produced or mixed the way we wanted but as we were young and lacking those skills ourselves we relied on other people to handle that side of the process.  In hindsight perhaps we should have been more argumentative and pushed more for what we wanted.

++ Let’s go back in time. What are your first music memories? Do you remember what your first instrument was? How did you learn to play it? What sort of music did you listen to at home while growing up?

Wow there’s a lot there to pick out.  So for myself, my inspiration growing up as a teen was a lot of British rock but I also loved the ‘glam’ stuff that was going on.  I liked things to be theatrical and a bit escapist.  I wasn’t really into the original punk or new wave music but I think that did influence some of the songwriting with C-Saim.  Bryn and Steve both had different tastes to me but that meant the pushing and pulling kept us from drifting too far in one direction.

My first instrument was a cheap, second hand electric guitar.  My brother was the first to start playing and I picked up a few little starters from him and then learned the rest by playing along with my favorite songs at the time.  Later I got hold of a keyboard and used that a bit for writing although we never used any keys or piano in our recordings except for ‘Night Air’ where we messed about with a piano and it seemed to fit.

++ Had you been in other bands before C-Saim? What about the other band members? Are there any songs recorded?

Before C-Saim I spent a white in a ‘school’ rock band that was more a fun thing than anything serious and there was never anything recorded. But it was a good experience.  It’s been many years since I spoke to any of those guys.

++ Where were you from originally?

We were all Bedford boys. All drifted off to different places over the years but I am now back in my home town.

++ How was Bedford at the time of C-Saim? Were there any bands that you liked? Were there any good record stores? Or what about the pubs or venues to go check out up and coming bands?

Hmm my memory isn’t brilliant but yes I can remember a big live music scene back then in Bedford.  We had a few good venues and some great bands – healthy competition.  The record store then was ‘HMV’ and Andy’s Records – now long gone.

So the good places to see bands would have been ‘The Angel’, also long gone.  A club by the name of Esquires started up not long after C-Saim had dissolved and that is still going now with some great new bands and a few from the past and it has a great vibe.

++ Were there any other good bands in your area?

Too many to recall but yes we had a great thing going and a large network of musicians who worked and played together.

++ How was the band put together? How was the recruiting process? You were brothers? related?

How long have you got?   It was really a case of being introduced by friends of friends. Initially we were a 4 piece playing hard rock covers but eventually Bryn, Steve and myself decided we wanted to start writing original material and moving in a different direction. We sacked the bass player and Brun, who was just singing at that point, took up the job of bass player and we became a trio and good friends.

++ Was there any lineup changes?

The three of us worked together without any changes for a few years until the time I left the band to do other things.  Steve and Bryn carried on for a while and added a brass section and keyboards but that version of the band didn’t last very long.

++ What instruments did each of you play in the band?

Steve Brown was a fab drummer and wrote some great lyrics.  He was tutored by John Shearer who was drummer with Steve Hackett after his Genesis days.

Bryn Daniels played bass and shared lead vocals.

Andy Bennette was guitar and shared lead vocals.

++ How was the creative process for you? Where did you usually practice?

There was a well known place in Bedford – the Brickhill Scout Hut – where a lot of local bands would rehearse.  There was no facilities there but it was tucked out of the way and easy to get to – and cheap.  We did have police dropping in now and then about the noise levels.

Most often we would come up with lyrics or music individually and then get together to see what we could do with them.  That meant a lot of diversity in ideas and it kept things fresh and evolving.  I do think quite often, we rushed into finishing songs when they really needed more time and honing but that’s the way it worked. We liked to keep adding new stuff.

++ What’s the story behind the band’s name?

Not a very deep or complicated meaning there. I think someone spotted a sesame snack in a shop once and we simply took the mispronunciation and turned it into C-Saim. So really its a meaningless name – but distinctive.

++ You only released a 7″ record during your time as a band, the double A sided record that had “Night Air” and “Give and Take”. This record was put out by Summit Records. I was wondering who were they and how did you end up working with them? Did you have a good relationship?

Steve’s brother. Bob, lived down in Brighton and knew the studio – I’m pretty sure that’s how it happened.  Our relationship with the label was fairly  short lived but they were great guys – we had a lot of fun down there.

++ The record was recorded at Wilbury Sound Studios in Hove. You worked with Mike Partridge. How was that experience?

It was a great studio in a cool location.  Hove is pretty much part of Brighton and it’s always been a creative kind of place, even today.  Mike was a nice guy – easy to work with and open to trying things.  When we needed a sax player and a female singer he had the contacts and called them in.

++ Tell me a bit about the artwork of the 7″. Who made it? Was it yourself? What did you wanted to express with it?

Pete Griffiths was a friend of the band and just went off and did the sketches for us.  I had written the lyrics for the songs but hadn’t talked to Pete about the meaning behind them. So he simply listened to the songs and put his own interpretation into the artwork.

++ Before doing this record, you already had experience at recording. Your first demo was recorded at Crypt Studios in Stevenage in 1980. Do you remember what songs were on this tape?

Yes the Crypt was litterelly that – in the basement of an old church. Dark, cold and full of atmosphere.  We were young and naive but enthusiastic.  The first demo was ‘Ever Been Had’ and ‘Caribbean Beach’.

++ The 2nd demo was also recorded at the same place. Again, there is no information online about what songs were recorded. Do you know?

‘Turn Tail and Run’ was one of the tracks but I cant remember what else we did.  These were in the early days where we were writing rather heavy rock tunes.

++ You also recorded at Leyland Farm Studios and Rocksnake Studios. What demos were recorded at these locations?

My memory of these is a bit vague.  I remember we did record ‘Johnny’s Stripey Jumper and ‘Night Air’.  The rest – I need to see if Bryn can remember!

++ Which was your preferred place to record then?

Of all these studios I guess Wilbury Sound in Hove was the best. They had plenty of kit there and knew how to use it.  But it was also a great town to hang out in – and there was a beach to chill when we weren’t working.

++ And speaking of demo tapes. I read that there are more songs like “Johny’s Stripey Jumper” and “Last Time”. How many more songs were recorded by the band? How many demos did the band put together?

Along with the studios previously mentioned, we did a few demo tracks in Watford when we were working with another label but I have no recollection of tracks we recorded there.

++ Is it true though that you have lost the original DAT tapes for your recordings? Are they available in any other format though?

Hmm I’m not sure where the idea of DAT tapes came from as they hadn’t been invented when we were doing our recordings.  I have the original master from the Crypt recordings but that wouldn’t survive being put on a tape machine.  The last time I talked to Bryn he told me he had copies on a tape of everything we ever recorded but I very much doubt anything there would be suitable for public consumption!  It will in interesting to go through the recordings though just to see if there are any songs we can re-work.

++ The band appeared on a couple of compilations. One is called “Lend an Ear 1992” from 1982 and released by Vroom Records. I haven’t been able to find myself a copy, but I know you had two songs on it, “Only Yesterday” and “General Custer”. Wondering what you can tell me about this record. Who were behind this label? Were you familiar with the other bands on it? Why did you contribute those two songs? Were they from your demos?

That was an interesting time where we had entered a ‘battle of bands’ thing and the LP was a compilation of tracks from the finalists – we didn’t win by the way.  But we were never happy with the result.  The comp was run by the record label and we always felt the recording of the LP was rushed.

None of the bands had time to record tracks to the standard we would have liked and we had no hand at all in the production or mixing.  I think the whole project is lacking – the sound is thin and the energy of the bands that was in the live performances was completely lost in the studio.  I have digitised the two tracks we recorded but I’m not sure I want to stream them unless I can somehow do some work on them to ‘beef’ them up a little.  Too much of the original excitement in the songs was lost – totally killed by people who missed the point of what we were doing.

Although it was a useful experience for us, the involvement with that record label caused a lot of friction in the band and things got quite nasty until we decided to walk away from it.

++ The other compilation is “Disco Mix Club – July 1983 – Tape 2”. On this tape you had “Night Air”. I read that this tape was exclusive for the Disco Club members. I don’t know who Disco Club were… so wondering if you can tell me about it?

I know absolutely nothing about that one.  That might be another gap in my memory but I’m afraid I can’t tell you anything about it!

++ I read too that there was a live session recorded at MK Radio in Milton Keynes. Is that available anywhere? What songs did you play for that session?

Again, very early days and it would have been our heavier songs. I can’t recall which ones though.

++ Aside from the demos we’ve mentioned, the compilations and the 7″, are there more songs recorded by the band? Unreleased ones?

There’s nothing out there that would be suitable for release. Plenty of demo songs but the masters wouldn’t exist any more and I suspect we would feel the songs needed more work in anycase.  That might still happen. I have spoken to Bryn recently and we talked about maybe getting together to write new material as C-Saim or rework some of the ‘unfinished’ songs from the past. So there may be new recordings released at some point.

++ My favourite song of yours is “Give and Take”, wondering if you could tell me what inspired this song? What’s the story behind it?

Ah ha!  Well now some songs are complete fiction and others might be based on experiences or by watching other people.  The lyrics for that one were my observations of a relationship of someone I knew. I can’t say any more than that!

++ If you were to choose your favorite C-Saim song, which one would that be and why?

That’s a tricky one, there are different songs I could pick for different reasons.  I think ‘Night Air’ is probably my favorite in terms of song writing even though the recorded single, in my view, could have been done better.  But C-Saim was always about the live energy so songs like ‘General Custer’ were a lot of fun to play – it’s just a shame Vroom couldn’t capture that raw energy in the studio.

++ What about gigs? Did you play many?

We were a very busy band.  We were all holding down day jobs but still went out and gigged a few times a week.

++ There’s this long list I found of places you played. It includes places like Luton, Leicester, London, and more. There are towns that I have never heard before though like Rushdan, Olney, Bicester, Old Warden and so on… I wonder how big or small were some of these gigs and how were you booked to play in these places?

These venues would have been everything from small bars to bigger clubs and halls.  Most of the time we would chase these gigs ourselves. Having failed to settle with a manager we felt we could work with, we decided to do it all ourselves where we could. So we became quite good as self promotion.

++ And what were the best gigs in general that you remember? Any anecdotes you can share?

Personally, I loved playing places that didn’t require a lot of travel. One of these was a local college (Now Bedford University).  We had started working with some other local bands and we got a bit cheeky with this gig.  I think we had 2 support bands and when it was our turn we only had to play about 20 minutes – but it did go down well.

We played a well known venue in London called the Moonlight Club.  That was an interesting one. A couple of guys came in and were up front fiddling with our cables and mic stands and basically trying to get us wound up.  We found out later they were only in the club hiding from the police. They were a couple of crack heads and one was packing!  

++ And were there any bad ones?

Probably a lot but one tends to block those from memory!

++ When and why did C-Saim stop making music? Were any of you involved in any other projects afterwards?

Just as we put the single out I was starting to feel the music wasn’t going the way I wanted it to. When I was writing songs I generally had an idea in my head of how it should sound but it never ended up there.  I felt I wanted time out to do other things so I walked away (and felt bad for it).  C-Saim carried on for a while but eventually folded.

We all worked with other musicians on different projects but nothing really came close to the energy and fun that I think we all got from C-Saim.

++ Was there any interest from the radio? TV?

I don’t think we were together long enough to generate much interest there – we probably would have pushed into that if the band had stayed together longer.

++ What about the press? Did they give you any attention?

Quite a bit. We did a few interviews but the interesting thing was, we did a hell of a lot of self promotion which included writing our own articles and reviews under different names. That generated a bit of interest from other places.

++ What about fanzines?

Only a local now but I can’t tell you what that was called now.

++ Looking back in retrospect, what would you say was the biggest highlight for the band?

In retrospect I can honestly say that the whole time together was a highlight, a real blast.  We enjoyed working together. What we really needed was management and record labels that would have got behind us and understood what we were trying to do but that just didn’t happen when we needed it. But I don’t think I could pick out a single event that was better than the whole.

++ Aside from music, what other hobbies do you have?

Me?  I have done freelance photography, a bit of art work but I still write music even if I don’t actually have a plan for it.

++ I’ve never been to Bedford so I’d love to ask a local. What do you  suggest checking out in your town, like what are the sights one shouldn’t miss? Or the traditional food or drinks that you love that I should try?

Bedford no longer has much of a reputation for anything particularly exciting these days.  It really depends on what you are looking for. We are an arty bunch but you got to look hard to find things worth coming for. We do have a good music store here that is owned by a lovely guy called Bruce Murray who was a school friend of Freddie Mercury’   And a good, organic music venue called Esquires where you can catch all kind of bands in an old style rock and roll environment.

++ Anything else you’d like to add?

It’s great to know there is still a bit of interest in the music C-Saim produced all those years ago.  There may be things happening this year and a new version of C-Saim might materialize  – who knows.  Meantime, ‘Give and Take’ and ‘Night Air’ are now available for streaming in the usual places.

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Listen
C-Saim – Give and Take

04
Oct

Thanks so much to Simon Parker for the interview! I wrote about the Chichester band Violet Trade on the blog not too long ago, and through Facebook Simon got in touch and offered to answer all my questions! And he did! It has been great to hear that he continues to be involved with music with his record label and that soon there will be a digital reissue of his autobiography. On top of all that, there are many Bandcamp links here that you should check out that have music from many of his different bands. Also check out this link to see some rare photos of the Violet Trade! Very cool! Hope you enjoy this great interview!

++ Hi Simon! Thanks so much for being up for this interview! How are you? Are you still involved with music?

Hello Roque! Thank you for discovering the music of The Violet Trade! Thirty three years after it was first recorded! I feel older but not old! Yes I have always been involved with music one way or another for what seems like all of my life! My current involvement is with NAKED Record Club which is the world’s first eco-record label. We take great indie albums and press them sustainably without harmful chemicals or huge amounts of water and electricity.  The process we use is brand new technology and sounds amazing! To date we have released albums by Babybird, Beezewax, Lowgold, The Chesterfields and Stars with our 6th release confirmed as Tahiti 80’s wonderful ‘Ballroom’ album.

Now that NAKED Record Club is up and running I hope to find time to return to my 2 bands

Villareal and Lightning Dept .

Villareal records take a long time to make and usually involves me rounding up string players, brass sections and various talented musicians to add to my studio sketches of songs (listen to https://villareal1.bandcamp.com/album/unravelling for an idea of how this sounds!).

Lightning Dept are the polar opposite of this and record short, sharp albums only ever using first or second takes. This process takes no longer than 2 days for recording of a whole album and then a further 1 day for mixing. The first album is here: https://lightningdept1.bandcamp.com/album/things-keep-blowing-up

++ Let’s go back in time. What are your first music memories? Do you remember what your first instrument was? How did you learn to play it? What sort of music did you listen to at home while growing up?

My first musical memory was hearing Marc Bolan/ T.Rex ‘Ride A White Swan’ and watching ‘Top of The Pops’ on TV on a Thursday evening. Musicians looked like they came from other planets! Watching the show was a real family affair although my sisters music tastes were routinely awful. My first instrument would have been the record player because I spent a lot of time listening to my parents record collection (Beach Boys, Electric Light Orchestra and Simon & Garfunkel). Finally I started buying my own records as an eleven year old circa 1979.  The Boomtown Rats ‘Fine Art of Surfacing’ and XTC ‘Black Sea’ (1980) were my two favourite albums when I started secondary school. But I was also an avid 7” single collector. I now have over 2500 singles including many punk, new wave and indie gems alongside a lot of not quite so cool 80’s and 90’s howlers. When I was thirteen I started saving for an electric guitar because the tennis racket I was prancing about with didn’t really have the same effect. I think I was 14 when I bought a second-hand Satelite, similar to this but all in black

I was self-taught and gave up about a year later because the guitar neck was so hopelessly warped and unplayable. I invested in the future, which at the time was a Casio PT-50 mono keyboard.

It was the time of the synth becoming very popular (1983) and I liked the fact I didn’t have to actually fret any notes to make a musical sound but I quickly got bored and eventually went back to learning the guitar. This time I persevered with all the major and minor chords and then started writing my own songs in 1985/6. Lyrics always came easy to me as English was the only subject I was good at during my school years. By 1987, I had moved to bass because nobody else wanted to play it in those fledgling bands I formed prior to The Violet Trade. I was already in love with The Cure and in particular, Simon Gallup’s style of bass playing. Ditto Peter Hook from New Order and Mike Mills from R.E.M. He’s very underrated as a bass player, isn’t he?

++ Had you been in other bands before The Violet Trade? What about the other band members? Are there any songs recorded?

My school band in 1982 was called ‘The Wasps’ but this generally involved no more than wearing sunglasses indoors and posing for photographs.  My mate Phil Bennett and I had a bedroom band called ‘October Fallen’ in 1986/7 and my first ‘proper’ band (i.e. one that had a drum kit and the need for a rehearsal room) was called ‘Frantic Heads’ (1987/8). This quickly morphed into ‘Onion Johnny’ (1988/89). There are recordings, not many of which are online but the soundtrack to my ‘Road To Nowhere (Mishaps of an Indie Musician)’ biography DOES let the world hear the full horror of a few of these very early recordings https://villareal1.bandcamp.com/album/road-to-nowhere-the-free-listening-companion

++ Where were you from originally?

I grew up in Chichester, West Sussex UK. It was a very boring cathedral city which did its best to forget about anybody under the age of 65. Probably still does…

++ How was Chichester at the time of The Violet Trade? Were there any bands that you liked? Were there any good record stores? Or what about the pubs or venues to go check out up and coming bands?

In Chichester you had to make your own entertainment. The Violet Trade started rehearsing at the end of 1989. By February 1990 we were playing live locally in youth clubs and leisure centres(!) because the pubs didn’t want bands playing original material. I spent most of my life looking for places to play or hanging out in record stores. I recall that ‘Shattered Records’ in Chichester and ‘Domino’ in Portsmouth were treasure troves of great indie releases.

Other than that I religiously scoured the bargains bins of Our Price, WH Smiths and Woolworths like many other devoted but hard-up record collectors did.

Violet Trade were heavily influenced by the growing indie scene (Charlatans, House of Love, Wedding Present, Pixies, Cure, REM etc) and at this time there was nowhere to go to hear this sort of music in Chichester. So myself and Violet Trade manager Mark Mason took our lives into our own hands and went to a biker pub on the outskirts of town. This place was called the Coach and Horses in Westhampnett and they only ever put on heavy rock or covers bands. But we convinced the pub manager to give us a mid-week shot on the proviso if we bring a decent crowd he would give us a monthly weekend residency. We filled the venue and kick-started an indie scene in our hometown, even though the pub was a good couple of miles outside of the town centre! We had our own DJ’s (Pete Wood and Tim Kelly AKA ‘DiscoSexHeaven’) and we chose our own support bands from a small but perfectly formed scene of like-minded indie kids.

++ Were there any other good bands in your area?

We loved Amazing Windmills from Portsmouth, who later went on to become ‘Velcro’ but shout out’s must also go to: Secondhand Daylight, Pyramid of Johnny, The Green Ray, Squelch, The Daniel Grade and The Helicopter Spies.

++ How was the band put together? How was the recruiting process?

The singer and I shared the same Christian name but no, we were not brothers!! The band was certainly like a dysfunctional family unit though, especially after we all started sharing a house in Chichester! I came from Onion Johnny who had played a handful of ragged shows in 1988-89. I met Simon McKay (vocals, guitar) who wanted to start a band after seeing us play live in the summer of 1989. We started hanging out together and it just became a natural evolution for us to form a band. We never auditioned anybody in the usual way, but you did have to pledge a lifelong allegiance to Talk Talk’s ‘Spirit Of Eden’ album which was only a couple of years old at this point and on the verge of being written off forever as a work of folly that ended their career! How times change!  To become a member of The Violet Trade you also needed to like drinking and getting very stoned. Nothing heavier than spliff when we started though, and the band quickly got known for putting on great parties in it’s large, detached rental abode! It helped we lived with a drug dealer and were situated just across the driveway from a local pub who sold us cheap kegs of (slightly out-of-date) beer.

++ On Bandcamp some of you appear as Si, Si, Greg & Gaz. Who do these names correspond to?

Simon McKay (vocals, guitar)

Simon Parker (Bass)

Greg Saunders (keyboards, backing vocals)

Gary Capelin (Drums)

++ Was there any lineup changes?

Yes, we added a fifth member Ted Tedman in the summer of 1992. Ted was a very talented musician who played second guitar, trombone, percussion and just about anything else you threw at him. Sometimes literally…

++ How was the creative process for you? Where did you usually practice?

All the Violet Trade songs were written by either Simon McKay or myself. We had adjoining bedrooms for a while and would literally throw comments out to each other when we heard each other playing in our own rooms! It was a very easy process and we wrote songs very quickly. The outlines of these songs were then kicked around in the front room of our rented house because we set up the drums and a full PA down one end of the lounge. VERY handy for those exciting world cup matches of the 1990 tournament.

++ What’s the story behind the band’s name?

Simon McKay and I chose one word each that we liked the sound of. ‘Violet’ was mine and ‘Trade’ was Simon’s. A band called ‘The Violet Hour’ got signed around the same time but they were nothing like us.

++ When it comes to compilations I believe you appeared on a cassette called “All Fun and Games” where you contributed the songs “Pseudo” and “Elegy”. Curious how did you end up on this tape released by a label called Asylum. Did they approach you? How did it happen?

Unfortunately this was not our Violet Trade! It’s news to me that anybody else ever took that name, even more so that they did it around the same time! The pre-internet world was a state of blissful ignorance for most of us!

++ So, the songs you recorded, were they available in any way at the time? Perhaps as demo tapes?

Violet Trade mainly recorded on 4-track and 6-track portable studios and only released their music on cassette! How indie is that?!

++ The first collection is called “…Give me the Happy” which encompasses recordings from 1990 and 1991. Where were these songs recorded? At different recording studios? Did you use a producer perhaps?

“…Give Me The Happy’ was basically a collection of studio and home demos. Tracks 1-5 were recorded at Crystal Studio’s in Southsea where The Cranes did a lot of recording. We used the studio engineer and had a lot of fun on this session but when we came out we realised those songs sounded nothing like us! So we quickly borrowed a friends 4-track and started recording in our front room. And that was tracks 6-18 on ‘Give Me…’. When we self-released a slightly-shorter version of this in 1991 I recall we gave 40 tapes to the Chichester branch of ‘Our Price’ thinking we would get most of them back. The next day they phoned up and asked for another batch!! We also sold a lot at live shows. I kept all the money in a shoe box under my bed and amassed a huge collection of £1 coins which we used to buy various ‘comestibles’. And to manufacture these cassettes I had to sit there and make the tape to tape copies in real time. Very laborious!

The song ‘Headstrong’ from the Crystal studio session has picked up some internet traction over the years as someone said it basically sounded like Slowdive before Slowdive were formed…which was nice because I really like that band! And ‘Salvation’ has often been cited because people are convinced it was the blueprint for Oasis and everything post 1994! The only problem was we wrote and recorded it in 1990/1 when Britpop had not yet been invented. It was definitely informed by The Stone Roses and to a lesser extent Flowered Up whom we all loved. That era was magical and indie music had a real power to it. That horrible put down ‘indie landfill’ would not be coined for at least another ten years.

++ The second collections dates from 1992 and 1995. It is titled “Sold to the Man with no Ears +” and has 19 tracks. One thing that caught my attention is that it has a release date for June 19, 1996. Was this released in any way at that time?

OK, I have to admit to a typo here! I actually digitized these files during covid and uploaded to Bandcamp because the original cassette masters are all steadily degenerating. You can hear this on some of the recordings here! All Violet Trade recordings were actually made between 1990-1993 although the original 4-piece re-grouped twice post 1995. I think I was trying to get the date to be as close to those re-union dates as I could but they don’t really make any sense to the lineage! So I’ve now changed them all to 2020. The original demo tapes came out in 1991 and 1992 with a smattering of that Crystal studio session appearing just before this in 1990.

‘Sold To The Man..’ was really an extension of how we recorded ’…Give Me The Happy’ although we had progressed to a 6-track machine and often recorded in my Dad’s small workspace where he restored books! The original ‘Sold To The Man..’ was a 6 song cassette (tracks 1-6) and was very popular when first released. It was number one in a respected  fanzine (‘The Word’) for a good few months and sold really well at gigs. The writer at The Word called it our ‘Screamadelica’ which was nice. Wrong, but nice! It showed off the many musical sides of the band at a time when this was not the thing to be doing.

++ This one has a song that caught my curiosity, “Salvation (Flat Records Version)”. I am curious if there was a Flat Records. Perhaps they were set to release you?

Yes, we had some record company attention. In 1991 it was Chrysalis Records but this turned out to be a bit of a mad one as an A&R scout started turning up at our band house for months and months telling us we were about to be signed to a big deal. Obviously this never happened and she lost her job! ‘Flat Records’ was run by Dick Crippen ex Tenpole Tudor and he wanted to put out ‘Salvation’ as a 12” single. We recorded it at his place in Surrey (the only Violet Trade song were recorded 3 times!) but the deal fell through. I don’t like the keyboards on the Flat version, far too jazzy and trying to show off. Stick with the earlier demo’s for the intended vibe!

++ The last collection is a live recordings album from 1990 to 1993 called “Doing the Upside Down”. Curious about where were these recorded? Was it all over the UK? From which venues do these recordings come from?

So, many people will tell you that seeing Violet Trade live was the best way to witness our music. As I’ve mentioned earlier we put on some great parties, took over a local pub and created a bit of an indie scene between 1990-1993 in Chichester. Live recordings show our band to the best of its abilities and as I had accumulated lots of live recordings from across the south coast of England I thought it would be a good way for people to hear the true essence of Violet Trade. Many of these live takes are better than the demo’s in my opinion! We covered The Cure, R.E.M. and Camper Van Beethoven which neatly sums up our disparate influences.

++ I was asking myself, looking at the dates of the songs of these live recordings, that none of them were from 1993. All from 1990 to 1992. Wondering if there are any missing perhaps? Or it was just a mistake?

We played our very last show in January 1993, so most of the recordings are 1990-1992. We played a LOT of live shows in this time. I recall at our last ever show (at that Biker pub in Westhampnett, but of course) we went offstage and came back dressed in each other’s clothes and started playing each other’s instruments! We finished the encore with ‘Take The Skinheads Bowling’ and I was the one singing and playing guitar. Something I had never wanted to do but would have to get used to as the 1990’s progressed…but that’s another story!

I wish I had a recording of that last show but it was all a bit sad really. We never fell out with each other so the last gig was quite upsetting for me. Basically Grunge had come along and blown away bands like Violet Trade. But within a year of us splitting up Britpop would be rearing it’s inquisitive little head and people were saying ‘oh I keep hearing bands that sound like Violet Trade on the radio’. Out of time and out of place. That was Violet Trade!

++ As mentioned, on Bandcamp there are many many songs. So I wonder why were there no proper releases by the band?

I think the fact we were based in Chichester and didn’t really enjoy playing in London probably hampered our chances of success. Everything was much more difficult to achieve pre mobile phones and the internet if you were a tiny band from a backwater town. We enjoyed our own local notoriety and lived for writing new songs and playing live. Who knows, maybe we can put these out on vinyl one day…

++ Was there any interest from labels at any point?

Yes and no. Lots of rejection letters from office juniors but some great comments when A&R scouts actually saw our band live (usually by mistake when awaiting the main band when we played at places like London’s Rock Garden, Islington Powerhaus, Harlesden Mean Fiddler etc). Chrysalis and Flat records were our two biggest chances I guess, but both floundered on that rocky indie coastline.

++ Are there more songs recorded by the band? Other songs that are not on Bandcamp?

Yes there were others but these are now all lost in action. Mainly due to the disintegration on those old cassette tapes. I threw some rehearsal tapes out in the early 00’s and then realised they had some undiscovered songs on them such as ‘Tunnel Walking’ which was great. Simon McKay might still have the odd tape kicking around but it’s unlikely. But there’s enough up on Bandcamp to paint a decent picture of a band doing its own thing and writing some great pop tunes!

++ My favourite song of yours is “Nightmare Ride”, wondering if you could tell me what inspired this song? What’s the story behind it?

Well, you are in luck because it was one I wrote! Thank you! ‘Nightmare Ride’ started life as a two chord riff that I attached a half-decent bass line to. This was called ‘I Dream of You’ and was rehearsed in 1988/89 by Onion Johnny. Then, late one summer night in 1989 I was busy falling asleep at the wheel and lost control of my car whilst travelling back from my girlfriends place in East Sussex. I remember swerving to avoid an injured dog in the road and nearly ended up in a lake. My car hit a kerb and somehow avoided flipping over and sending me into the water at seventy miles an hour! I came home wrote some new lyrics and a completely different chorus, changed the title to ‘Nightmare Ride’ and presented it to The Violet Trade a few weeks later. It was always meant to sound more like The Wedding Present (circa ‘George Best’) but our drummer made it more indie dance because he’d never heard the Wedding Present but didn’t like to admit it!

++ If you were to choose your favorite The Violet Trade song, which one would that be and why?

That’s a difficult one because so many of them have great memories attached! But I hate people copping out and not having favourites so I’m going to say that the best song I wrote for the band was  ‘Twelfth of Never’ because it’s the nearest I got to writing a perfect pop song. If I was to choose one of Simon McKay’s songs I would go for ‘Peggy Bottles’ ‘cos it’s just so fab. But most people say the best Violet Trade song  was ‘Salvation’ because it always rocked live.

++ What about gigs? Did you play many?

We probably played around 150-200 live shows between 1990-1993. I loved playing gigs but as time wore on some band members would prefer to stay at home with the bong instead. Good drugs turn to bad drugs. It’s always just a matter of time.

++ And what were the best gigs in general that you remember? Any anecdotes you can share?

The best shows would have been at The Coach & Horses pub in Westhampnett when we had our own club night which ran once a month for 2 years on and off. Honestly, people couldn’t wait to get up on the dancefloor and join in with the singing! It was as if we were a much bigger band than we actually were. I recall we played a stormer of a live date at Islington Powerhaus in the summer of 1991 with a great band from the Midlands called ‘Steam’. This one turned into a totally unplanned stage invasion and was viewed by an A&R scout at Island Records called James Dewar if memory serves. Just googled him. He’s still in the music business!

++ And were there any bad ones?

We rarely played bad gigs but I recall we did have a bit of a bad night in Worthing once when the audience were really only there to watch another (much more serious) local band.  Try as we might we could not win them over no matter what we did. It was like an audience of Leonard Cohen fans coming to a Madness concert. But that was a very rare occurrence and even when we played to complete strangers we always got people up and dancing! Even grumpy sound engineers at various flea-bitten London venues were known to smile at our shows-and that was no mean feat.

++ When and why did The Violet Trade stop making music? Were any of you involved with other bands afterwards?

Gary (the drummer) and I really wanted to make a career in music and decided we had to get out of Chichester. The town was stifling AND the Coach and Horses pub shut down around the time we decided to leave. The Violet Trade was going nowhere but the rest of the band seemed dis-interested to say the least. As I’ve mentioned above the musical climate had changed dramatically from the ‘indie dance’ period to the Grunge rock explosion and there was just no way we could re-invent ourselves and not look pathetic. So Gary and I moved to Brighton and put together Colourburst who had 4 distinct phases (and 2 different singers 1993-4), before I eventually found myself providing lead vocals from the end of 1994 until we disbanded for good in 1997.

This is always a good video to share: Colourburst (with me singing a punked up version of Wham’s ‘Last Christmas’) which got shown on late night ITV twice over the yuletide of 1995. We never did get permission to cover this, but I reckon George and Andrew would have liked it!).

Colourburst put out 2 vinyl singles (one good one bad) and then fragmented into Fruit Machine, fronted by Jennie Cruse (Fisher-Z) and Rachel Bor (Dolly Mixture).

Gary left Fruit Machine who were then signed to producer Steve Lovell (Blur, Julian Cope) . The remnants of this band then morphed into Lumina but bad luck and industry dogma thwarted these projects and eventually saw me take a break from music before returning a year or so later with Villareal.

I remained in Brighton and started the very popular indie bands night ‘Cable Club’ in 2002. Bands such as The Cribs, Kooks, The Bees, Bat For Lashes, Fujiya and Miyagi, The Maccabees, Kasabian and many, many more play a Cable Club gig between 2002-2014.

++ Was there any interest from the radio? TV?

Back in the early 90’s it was very difficult to get indie bands exposure on anything! I think local radio may have played some Violet Trade but the most bizarre mention on radio was by the esteemed Chesney Hawkes during our association with the crazy Chrysalis A&R department. Apparently (none of the band ever witnessed the radio show in question) Chez told a reporter that Violet Trade was his fave new band of the moment in 1991. How nice of him!

We never appeared on TV but there were several live video’s which did the rounds of our friends VCR recorders over the years. None of these survived to get digitized!

++ What about the press? Did they give you any attention?

Try as me might to get NME & MM interested, we never managed to crack this nut. I don’t think we had the right image and we definitely had the wrong manager! NEVER employ your mate(s) to manage your band! We needed someone with contacts and connections, ours had neither.

++ What about fanzines?

Yes, as detailed above fanzines did feature us quite a bit. ‘The Word’ (a Sussex based fanzine) certainly loved what we were doing for a while. There were others, some in London, various good live reviews but nothing that has stood the transition to the digital age.

++ Looking back in retrospect, what would you say was the biggest highlight for the band?

I think the biggest highlight for the band was being given the keys to our own large house in the early summer of 1990! From here we wrote, rehearsed, partied and avoided the real world for about one whole year! During this time the band’s songwriting took flight and our lives were unsullied by outside forces. Looking back, this was a truly magical time and it was a bloody miracle nobody ever died or got arrested!

++ Aside from music, what other hobbies do you have?

Music is still my guiding passion but my partner and I have a dog called Treacle who is quite a character and takes up a lot of our time. Southern France is a stunning area with amazing landscapes and breath-taking walks over red-earth terrain. We are very lucky to call this home. The wine is good, too! I love films and books and want to explore more of the planet but without having to use aeroplanes to get everywhere. I’d like to visit the beautiful Scottish coastlines and maybe go coast to coast across the USA in a car. But it doesn’t feel right to be jetting off anywhere right now. Corruption and corporate bullying is destroying the planet. Thanks to the right-wing press this is a very scary moment in time and it is frustrating to see that so many people are still in complete denial about why rain forests are burning, cities are flooding and only the share-holders prosper. PEOPLE WAKE UP! You’re not getting the truth about your planet!

Getting off my soap-box, I still adore and collect vinyl records and I also consume a lot of music documentaries and magazines. I love old and new bands and have never lost that spirit of being ‘indie’.

++ Tell me a bit more about the NAKED record club. From what I understand it is the first eco-friendly vinyl record!

My job at NAKED Record Club is an extension of what I love and is concerned with sustainability in vinyl record manufacturing. I am always on the look-out for great indie albums that we can eco-press. Obviously this is not easy because major labels control their catalogues like jealous lovers! But NAKED’s aim is to get a high profile artist such as The Cure, R.E.M, The National, Radiohead or Kate Bush to grant us a licence to manufacture one of their records using a sustainable factory. Indie isn’t just about scratchy guitars it’s a state of mind and we feel these artists share the same pioneering spirit as NAKED. We’ve already done it with a handful of great bands but now it’s time to take it to the next level because green issues are being buried by governments and those bloody corporations. We have the solution but time is running out.

++ And what is Vinyl Revolution?

Vinyl Revolution is at the heart of everything we do! It was actually the name of the two record shops that my partner and I set up and ran between 2016-2019. It was a dream come true for me to own my own record store and we had locations in Tunbridge Wells and Brighton. But running a shop is very difficult these days due to dodgy landlords and extortionate business rates and the rise of Amazon etc.  But despite this, Vinyl Revolution was very popular and got a lot of great press, including a brilliant feature in The Independent which said we were the best record shop in Brighton!

But when Brexit came along, Rachel and I headed for France and started looking into ways to make vinyl records more sustainable. The product of this all work is NAKED Record Club and we are out there doing it right now!

++ You also wrote an autobiography called “Road to NowhereL Mishaps of an Indie Musician“. I’d love to read it someday. What inspired you to write it and where can people find copies of it?

‘Road to Nowhere (Mishaps of an Indie Musician)’ was the extended story of everything you’ve read in this article! I was approached by a friend who runs a small publishing company about detailing my musical career. He knew there were heart-breaking moments and funny stories connected to my life in indie bands, and thought people might like to share in these highs and lows! The music industry was in the process of changing during my tenure in bands and by the early 2000’s it was virtually unrecognisable to the one I had started out in during the nineties. The A&R world that I had tried so hard to infiltrate was utterly decimated by the arrival of online music. The book was a lot of fun to write but I also found it quite poignant too.

Apart from my own music (which is only of interest to a very small proportion of the world’s population!) I also wanted to include some of the hundreds of fantastic indie artists and records that have been a huge part of my life since the mid-eighties. I got to do this in ‘Road To Nowhere’ by including lots of ‘Top Ten’ lists and by namechecking indie artists from the last four decades. For instance I got to write about my love of Edwyn Collins, Mark Eitzel, XTC, Trashcan Sinatra’s, The Cure, Talk Talk and many, many more by weaving my own story throughout an already existing indie narrative.

Although the original paperback has long since sold out there is a new updated ten year anniversary digital edition due in 2024 (possibly even sooner if I can get around to editing the last couple of post-band chapters!). I’m not sure what platform this will be issued on but anybody interested should email info@nakedrecordclub.com to get added to the mailing list for Road To Nowhere V2.0!

++ Of course now you are living in France and I wonder when and why did you go there. Whereabouts in France are you and what do you like of this location. And if there is anything you miss about the UK, Chichester in particular?

As I’ve mentioned previously my partner and I now live in a small town in Southern France not far from Montpellier. We are both British by birth and saw how badly the Conservative government was treating its citizens so we just decided to stay here and not come back! We now have French residency and enjoy a different pace of lifestyle. It is a challenge for us to set up NAKED in a foreign country (especially as our French speaking is still very rudimentary) but we have met a lot of great people who are interested in our idea of sustainable vinyl records. And the French government still invests in culture and green issues, so being in France is a no-brainer for us.

But I do miss England for its great pubs, record fairs and countryside walks in winter. And of course I miss friends, family and band members too. It’s funny, as I get older I also find myself missing my hometown and try to return to Chichester at least once a year. Of course it is virtually unrecognisable from the town I left all those years ago but there are still indelible memories attached to everything I see and hear in that crotchety old town.

++ Anything else you’d like to add?

Thank you Roque and Cloudberry for discovering the music of The Violet Trade, many years after it was first made. How did you ever stumble across it?! Surely by mistake or maybe it was divine intervention?! I’m still in touch with the original band members (although sadly Ted Tedman is no longer with us to share in this moment) but I will be sure to tell them about this interview!).

To anyone who listens to the band after reading this interview and who likes what they hear, The Violet Trade salutes you.

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Listen
The Violet Trade – Nightmare Ride

27
Sep

Thanks so much to all Lipsitck Vogue members for this wonderful interview! Great to get the point of view of all four! I had written about Lipstick Vogue, an Irish band that only got to release two songs on a Danceline compilation, but who did record many more songs. The good news were that it didn’t take long for Cathal to contact me on Facebook and we agreed on the interview. Then he got aboard his mates, and here it is, a superb interview with lots of details. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did!

++ Hi Mark, Cathal, Denis! Thanks so much for being up for this interview! How are you? Are you still involved with music?

Mark: Through my job in advertising I still occasionally work with composers and musicians. My Son is now doing drum lesson. So, I’m finally learning how it should be done.

Denis: Not as a player. I still buy records and go to gigs. And I suppose I have a kind of professional interest, as an academic researching early and silent cinema, in what music was played in those venues.

Tony: Not directly, but as I work for a high-profile book publisher, I have met various musicians and bands who have written books. All that must stay confidential.

++ Let’s go back in time. What are your first music memories? Do you remember what your first instrument was? How did you learn to play it? What sort of music did you listen to at home while growing up?

Mark: I loved watching the Beatles movies as a kid. Then The Rolling Stones and the Boomtown Rats were the bands that I really got into. REM came along and that was like discovering the music I actually wanted to make. Through the Stones I discovered Muddy Waters. I got his Hard Again album and got a harmonica to play along to Mannish Boy. 

Cathal: First music memories are probably Irish folk music – The Dubliners particularly which I would have heard as a kid. My parents liked music well enough but didn’t have music collections per se.  I remember Abba becoming huge in the mid 70’s. First band I really got into was the Boomtown Rats – coming at the tail end of punk but being from Dublin which was important. I remember having a huge Tonic for theTroops badge that I wore everywhere!  I bought a Yamaha accoustic guitar around 1984 and struggled with it. Eventually when I joined the band Tony showed me a few chords so I could play rhythm in some songs to free him up a bit for frills and solos and to flesh out the sound a wee bit.  To my embarrassment I’ve never really expanded beyond a very basic level of competency (if you could call it that!!).

Denis: My first instrument was probably a tin whistle – a kind of small flute used in Irish traditional music – for school music lessons, but that was more a torture instrument for all concerned, and not an experience likely to engender love of music. I had no other formal musical training.

At home, my mother didn’t have much interest in music, but my father enjoyed classical music and light opera that he mostly listened to on the radio rather than buying records. I slowly requisitioned an old cabinet radio-record player combo, and although I didn’t have much money, I began to buy singles. Bob Marley was an early favourite. Music programmes on TV and radio were also major sources of new sounds. We got UK TV stations in Ireland, so Top of the Pops and The Old Grey Whistle Test on the BBC and the more anarchic The Tube on Channel 4 were staples at various stages.

Tony: First musical memories – Has to be Opera!! My uncle supplied and fitted sound systems to the major supermarkets in Ireland from the 60’s onwards and had serious audio kit at his home. His gig was Opera and on many a Sunday as a child my family and I would visit for dinner, what followed afterwards was a complete loud fest! My internal organs felt like they moved position as the floor vibrated to Verdi!

My first instrument was a Guitar – An acoustic Suzuki, which I confiscated (without a fight) from my eldest brother and which I still have to this day.

How did I learn to play – I fiddled around on it for years before actually learning a single chord, I might have accidentally created a new genre of music by the age of eight.

Music at home – I was the youngest of 5 kids, I had no choice! My one goal in life was to rid this world of Chris De Burgh, Leo Sayer and The Stylistics!!!
I was a blank canvas in my early teens when I fell into the arms of Mark, Cathal, Denis and our other good friends, they deserve all the credit for my musical education.

++ Had you been in other bands before Lipstick Vogue? What about the other band members? Are there any songs recorded?

Mark: No and No. 

Cathal: None of us had been in other bands before really – been to plenty of gigs etc but not really played.

Denis: This was the first band for us all. Mark, Tony and myself did a few gigs as a three piece before Cathal joined out front, with Mark doing the main vocals from behind the kit.

Tony: Never!! That would have been treason.

++ Where were you from originally?

Mark: Dublin

Cathal: We’re all northside Dubliners and knew each other from school in Glasnevin.  Myself and Denis left school in 84 and Mark and Tony in 85.

Denis: Dublin; always Dublin. But I did migrate to the less soulful Southside suburbs after school. I’m back on the Northside of the city now.

Tony: Ballymun, North Dublin – probably best illustrated musically in Running to Stand Still by U2 – I see seven towers, but I only see one way out, add in a diet of Chris De Burgh, Leo Sayer and The Stylistics and the deck is stacked against you. Once again, I credit my band mates and other friends of The Vogues for that one way out.

++ How was Dublin at the time of Lipstick Vogue? Were there any bands that you liked? Were there any good record stores? Or what about the pubs or venues to go check out up and coming bands?

Mark: Economically still quite depressed. A lot of emigration. But the music scene was vibrant. Lots of bands playing live. 

Yea, Something Happens, A House (we supported them a couple of times) A little earlier The Blades. They were the Irish bands we admired. Others were Light a Big Fire, Stars of Heaven.

Were there any good record stores? Freebird records was the go-to indie store. Sounds Around was a another good one. Music World was the closest to home. It wasn’t great but it was local.

The Baggot Inn was the venue that up and coming bands aspired to play. We headlined there and played support to other bands including Auto de Fe, who were produced by Thin Lizzy’s Philip Lynott. David Bowie did a surprise gig with Tim Machine.

Cathal: That period in Dublin was the aftermath of U2 becoming huge so there was a lot of interest from record companies in the next U2.  In addition it was the middle of a huge recession so a lot of unemployment and young people with nothing to do so that combination meant there were a lot of bands playing in Dublin at the time. I liked lot of bands from that period and a lot of them are still playing in one form or other.  Loved Something Happens – very jangly kind of stuff, did cover versions of REM and Jason and the Scorchers alongside Borderline by Madonna. Also the Stars of Heaven who were more Television meets Gram Parsons and had a bit of Indie success in the UK with John Peel sessions etc.  A House were the other big band at that time and were more kind of arty/clever.  Their singer was in college with Mark so we got a support slot with them at some stage.  Light A Big Fire were also kinda big at that time and looked like they might break big but it never happened for them.

The venues really were Underground – a tiny basement bar which ran gigs 7 nights a week and hosted all three bands listed above. I spent a lot of Friday and Saturday nights in there in 1984 and 1985 and a live Mini LP was recorded there around then.  If you outgrew the Underground you moved on to the Baggott Inn which was a more standard music venue and was kinda t-shaped. When Something Happens got a record contract they moved to a Friday night residency there for a while. Another fave of mine – the Blades – also gigged there regularly.  U2 had played there in the late 70’s and it also hosted visiting bands – I saw Wilko Johnson there and Roger McGuinn played there too.  In later years it hosted David Bowie in his Tin Machine incarnation.

As far as record shops go – there was an Irish owned chain which is still operating called Golden Discs which was fairly mainstream but you could find the odd gem in.  I loved Sounds Around on O’Connell St which had more variety and Freebird Records which was on Grafton St at the time.  Freebird is still on the not far from the original shop and I still shop there fairly regularly.  Sadly Sounds Around is long gone.

Denis: Dublin was pretty economically depressed and looked it. A lot if people were on the dole or emigrated after school. Music was a way out of that, in both being something creative to be involved in – connecting with friends and things you were listening to – and Irish bands were seeing some success. We went to a lot of gigs, bigger ones by international acts and often smaller, pub-based ones for local bands. I got a job in the post office straight from school – college came later – which meant I had money for the first time in any useful amounts. A lot of that went on music: records and gigs. I felt I had to make up for lost time, build a collection. Freebird on Eden Quay was the record shop with the best stock of what I was interested in, but I visited them all, looking for something unusual, bargains, whatever.

Lots of pubs had a back room/function room that could be hired for an occasional gig, but there were venues that specialized in gigs and had back line and a sound engineer. The main places where we went to see local bands were places we played in later ourselves: the Ivy Rooms, the Underground and the Baggot Inn. The more successful bands played clubs like McGonagle’s, the TV Club or even the SFX.

Tony: Both Mark and Cathal have pretty much nailed this one in their replies, it was grim, but it was also fun, there was a unique character to Dublin and characters in Dublin back then.

++ Were there any other good bands in your area?

Cathal: I didn’t really know any other bands in the area (Cabra/Glasnevin/Ballymun) but there were a lot of bands in Finglas which was close by including Aslan whose singer Christy Dignam passed away recently.  A few work friends were in bands too – Pat Dalton in the Anthill Mob and Joe McDonnell in Giant.

Denis: The area of the city I grew up in – Glasnevin – is famous as the site of the city’s largest cemetery. Growing up, there wasn’t much for the living, and no local bands I was aware of. You had to go into the city for that.

Tony: We all hung out together and went to the same gigs, once again I refer to my learned colleagues.

++ How was the band put together? How was the recruiting process? You were brothers? related?

Mark: We were all in school together. 

Cathal: As I mentioned we were all school friends really. Mark and Tony started the band and rehearsed in Mark’s bedroom as a singer and guitar player. Mark had a drumkit too and sometimes would play in the kitchen. Not sure when Denis joined on bass but I remember seeing them as a 3 piece in the Ivy Rooms with Tony out front and Mark also singing from behind the kit.  They did a cover of Bob Dylan’s Isis which Tony sang.  At some stage after that they asked me if I would be interested in being the singer – based on my dress sense more than any singing ability I think.

Denis: We went to school together and had common interests in music. When I heard that Tony and Mark were starting a band and looking for a bass player, I bought a bass. Then I began to teach myself how to play it.

Tony: The embryo of the band emerged after a conversation in the Addison Lodge Pub, Glasnevin between Mark and I, if memory serves me right.  We roped in Denis and Cathal very soon after. All of us were in school together.

++ Was there any lineup changes?

Mark: No, there were only ever four Vogues. Much like the Beatles. 

Cathal: The band probably lasted 4 or 5 years max but was always the same lineup.

Denis: No, not really. We were pretty consistent.

Tony: No, just us four. We were loyal and never considered changes to the dynamic.

++ What instruments did each of you play in the band?

Mark: Cathal Peppard – Vocals and occasional guitar. Tony Purdue Guitar, Denis Condon bass, Mark Nutley Drums/Vocals.

++ How was the creative process for you? Where did you usually practice?

Mark: We’d jam ideas for songs, usually starting with some riff or chord sequence that Tony came up with on guitar, or a bass line from Denis. Cathal and myself would contribute lyrics. We’d put it together and see what happens. We rehearsed mostly in a place called Alan Furlong Studios in Dublin. A kip.

Cathal: At first we practiced in a friend’s garage and then rented rehearsal rooms in Alan Furlong’s studios which was pretty run down but we rehearsed there twice a week for a good while and that was where we would have written most of the songs that are on that Soundcloud page.  Often the songs would  start off with a guitar riff from Tony but Mark and myself usually had bits of lyrics on the go too. As thing progressed it was something from everyone really though.

Denis: Somebody would have an idea that we all worked on at rehearsals, developing the various parts and arrangements. In the early days, we rehearsed in our parents’ houses, which was not popular with family or neighbours. Better for a while was a friend’s large house which had a part where a crèche operated during the week but was largely free on weekends. Later, we would meet at one or other, most dingy, rehearsal studio.

Tony: We’d jam mostly and work on various ideas we had, time was always against us as we had 3 hours here, 5 hours there. Looking back, I would have loved to get us in an isolated barn for three weeks on the west coast of Ireland with a good power supply, good PA and see what would have happened.

++ What’s the story behind the band’s name?

Mark: Took it from an Elvis Costello Song. I liked the sound of it. Maybe I thought it was a bit New York Dolls or something. Kinda punky, but sort of smart. Anyway, we went with it. 

Cathal:Taken from Elvis Costello song – much loved by us all. If I remember rightly it was decided at a band meeting in Mark’s kitchen but now I’m wondering were the 3 piece version called something different….

Denis: Unhappy with a previous moniker and needing a change for an upcoming gig, we were listening to some Elvis Costello and the Attractions in Mark’s house when “Lipstick Vogue” came on. The rest is rock-and-roll history.

Tony: We just loved that Elvis Costello song, it pretty much had everything to aspire to musically so the name just stuck.

++ There’s very little information about the band but one thing that seems to be clear is that the only songs that got released were the tracks “Riversend” and “When Will You” that appeared on the “Swimming Out of the Pool” compilation. Is that right? No other songs were released?

Mark: No, that’s it.

Cathal: No – they were the only songs foisted upon the unwitting public!

Denis: I think that’s right.

Tony: That was it, unfortunately.

++ Why didn’t you get the chance to release more songs? Or your own record? Was there interest from any labels at any point?

Mark: We got face to face meetings in EMI, MCA and Chrysalis where A& R guy Bruce Craigie was the most encouraging. However, the deal never happened.

Cathal: At the time self released singles were really expensive to doso we didn’t go down that road.  We had looked at the possibility of giving a song to a Comet Records compilation too (another really good record shop I forgot to mention above!!) but it never worked out.

Denis: Lack of money, I think. We had enough to write songs, rehearse them and hire a studio so we could get to the demo stage, but we found it hard to get beyond it. Serious label interest I don’t remember.

Tony: We would have loved to; Mark and Cathal did great work in London but the interest shown never developed beyond that,

++ Back to the compilation released by Danceline Records. How did you end up on it? Did they approach you? Did you send them demos?

Mark: I think we sent in a demo and got picked. 

Cathal:I worked (and still do) in the Civil Service and a lot of civil servants were in bands and/or caught up in the music scene.  Pete and Eddie who ran a club night in a Civil Service club in town and also the Danceline label had given a write up for one of the demos in the Public Sector Times (very rock ‘n’ roll I know!!) so knew the songs and were looking for bands for a new compilation.  Think Eddie also did the local band column in the Hot Press (Ireland’s version of the NME) and had reviewed an early demo so knew us a bit through that.  Myself and Mark went to London with copies of the demo and visited some of the record companies there. No hard interest but if I remember Chrysalis had talked about maybe funding further demos but nothing came of it so that may be me recollecting things in a more positive light than was the reality!

Denis: I think they contacted us – may be wrong. Possibly on the back of the Hot Press Battle of the Bands?

Tony: I think Cathal detailed that perfectly.

++ This compilation features many great Irish bands. Wondering if you were fans of any of them, or even friends? Or perhaps you shared with some of them some gigs?

Mark: From memory I don’t think we really knew the other bands. 

Cathal:I remember the Outpatients well enough – they were kinda quirky. Think the Storm were more straight ahead rock.  Don’t think we ever shared gigs with any of them after. We supported Giant who also had a single released on Danceline once or maybe twice – I also knew their bass player Joe who was another Civil Servant!

Denis: Looking at it now, the only band I can remember is the Outpatients, but I don’t think that’s because we were in a mutual appreciation society. I seem to remember a Danceline gig; did that actually happen?

Tony: I didn’t know any of the other bands personally but would have seen posters for forthcoming gigs about the town, that was it.

++ Another tiny thing that caught my attention is the spelling of the song “River’s End”. On the Soundcloud appears as two words, on the compilation as “Riversend”. Mistake?

Mark: I think two words was how we intended it.  

Cathal: A mate posted the songs on Soundcloud a few years back and that’s his typing! The title is Riversend – in retrospect I like the James Joyce kinda vibe with the two words running into each other. I was mad about a record by Nikki Sudden/Jacobites called Robsepierre’s Velvet Basement at the time and that had a song on it called Where the Rivers End so that also fed into it I’d say.

Denis: It was the days before the spell checker. Likely an editorial decision by Eddie or Pete at Danceline, dislike of apostrophes or the like.

Tony: I have to admit that I always wrote it on playlists as one word, so not a mistake.

++ From what I understand you recorded a demo tape in 1988 at Windmill Lane. Do you remember if this demo had a name? And what songs were included in it?

Mark: We recorded the two tracks that ended up on the ‘Swimming” compilation in the Windmill session. We just did those two tracks. 

Cathal: Don’t think it had a name per se.We recorded in Windmill 2 which was on Stephens Green – rather than the main studio which was where U2 recorded. The main claim to fame for Windmill 2 was that Def Leppard had recorded Hysteria there.  The demo was the 2 songs from Swimming Out of the Pool – Riversend and When Will You?

Denis: I don’t have a copy of that, but I don’t think any of the demos had a name. Likely a name seemed like an extravagant waste of cassette-label space that was needed for our contact details for radio producers and A&R people. When I do play any of the old songs, it is from a CD compilation called One for the Money that Mark put together, with some entertaining liner notes. That has nine songs: “When Will You Be Home?”, “River’s End”, “You Think Too Much”, “Raintown”, “Walk Alone”, “Dreaming”, “Tidal Wave Woman”, “Anywhere But Here” and “Malthouse.” Those are the ones that are on Soundcloud.

Tony: It didn’t have a name, happy to refer to it as the Windmill Session. Both Riversend and When Will You recorded that day and featured on Swimming Out of the Pool.

++ And how was Windmill Lane Studios? How was your experience there? Did you work with a producer?

Mark: The recording took place in Windmill Two which was just off St Stephen’s Green. John Grimes was the engineer, he was very helpful. We had no producer. We got a good deal on the studio from the then manager of the studios, Irene Keogh. She was later married to the Waterboy’s Mike Scott for a while. It was a great experience. Kate Bush had been in the week before. It felt like the big time.  

Cathal: It was enjoyable – we worked the night shift Saturday night into Sunday if I remember right.  A good friend of the band,Don KcKevitt was there with us and knew studios a bit. He was a bit older than us and had been in bands in Dublin in the late 70’s. My main memory is the engineer getting us to put the feedback in Riversend and the backing vocals on When Will You.

Denis: That was a great experience in lots of ways. It felt like a step up in terms of our own ambition and the quality of the material we produced. This was down to our own preparations but also to the engineers; we didn’t have a producer. It was, like all of this, self-financed, so we only had a limited time. But it really felt that we worked those songs.

Tony: It was Windmill Lane 2 just off Stephen’s Green, a small studio but with a strong pedigree. We had no producer just a very good engineer. I remember being very well rehearsed prior to going into that session, you had to do that to maximise the time you had, it wasn’t limitless. We never had the luxury of sitting back for a long mixing session, it would have been nice to do that.

++ Were there any other demo tapes the band put out? If so, can you share a demo-graphy?

Mark: When will you be Home?, River’s End: Recorded 27th February 1988, Windmill Lane Two, Dublin, Engineer – John Grimes assisted by Richard O’Donovan.

You think too much: Recorded Origin Studios, Dublin. February 1987. Engineered by Quill.

Raintown: Recorded at The Lab, Dublin. 18th of March 1987, Engineered by Louise McCormack,

Walk Alone, Dreaming, Tidal Wave Woman, Anywhere But Here, Malthouse: Recorded 21st December 1988, Origin Studios, Dublin. 21st December 1988, Engineered by Terry Merrick

Cathal: Think all the stuff on Soundcloud covers most of the demos apart from some very early stuff.  We recorded a bit in a studio called Origin in Santry – which was essentially a converted garage and had an engineer enigmatically named Quill! You Think Too Much was recorded there and later on Walk Alone, Malthouse, Anywhere But Here, Dreaming and Tidal Wave Woman.  We recorded Raintown in Litton Lane Studios after the manager there saw us playing support to someone in the Baggott Inn (think the idea was the engineer and band both got some experience out of it).  The band sound great but my vocals less so which I think was hangover related!

Denis: My rarest recording is our first demo, recorded in Origen studios, 8 November 1986. This I have as a cassette, with a hand-drawn cover by Harry Purdue. Those songs didn’t make it onto One for the Money, probably because of the quality of the recording. I know from Mark’s One for the Money liner notes that there were two other Origen sessions in February 1987 and December 1988, and that between these, we recorded at the Lab in March 1987 and Windmill Lane in February 1988. The Danceline compilation was also 1988, so those three years were the productive ones.

Tony: Mark listed them all, although I do have a secret DAT recording session we did when I was training to be a sound engineer. I have no idea as to what’s on it or how good or bad it is. I must investigate a DAT transfer one of these days as I still have the tape.

++ Generally, what would you use your demo tapes for? To send them to the press? Sell them at gigs? Try to get the attention of labels?

Mark: To get gigs, press and ultimately to get a deal. Plus, we felt, we’ve written these songs, let’s record them. 

Cathal: Generally we sent the demos to Hot Press, Dave Fanning (the Irish John Peel) and touted them to record companies.  Think they got us the Hot Press competition gigs too.

Denis: More as a means to an end: record company attention and radio play, where we would have the opportunity to make the recordings better. We never sold them, unless I’m forgetting something.

Tony: All the above except for selling at gigs, our business acumen and economically viable production facilities hadn’t developed to that level at the time.

++ Are there more songs recorded by the band? Other songs that are not on Soundcloud?

Mark: I think that’s the lot. 

Cathal: Just some very early songs and possibly another later one called Good To Have You Back we recorded in Sun Studios (Dublin not Memphis sadly!) when Tony was training as a sound engineer later on.

Denis: The songs from the first demo are not there, as already mentioned. And no doubt there were a few others whose names escape me.

Tony: None but the secret session I engineered, I’m now in fear of listening to it!!!!!

++ My favourite song of yours is “River’s End”, wondering if you could tell me what inspired this song? What’s the story behind it?

Mark: That’s one for Cathal to answer. 

Tony: Cathal Peppard – our great wordsmith can answer that one.

Cathal: Listening back to it now as I write this.  Pretty sure the lyric is mostly me.  Think it was the standard dark come on to a girl type of song but living in Dublin there has to be lot of bad weather references!! Don’t think it worked as a come on either!  In general though I tend to agree with Ian McCulloch that it’s more about what words sound good with the melody.  The music is great on there too – especially like the staccato drum thing at end of the chorus.

++ If you were to choose your favorite Lipstick Vogue song, which one would that be and why?

Mark: Maybe, Walk Alone. I still think it could be a hit! 

Cathal:I think it’s a toss up between Anywhere But Here and Walk Alone.  Anywhere… has that kind of Stars of Heaven sound and some lovely guitars. If I remember Mark wrote most of the lyrics with a bit of input from me when we were in London touting the demo around. The kindred spirit mentioned in the song is Don McKevitt who we were staying with and who had a band called the Kindred Spirits.  Loved to play Walk Alone live – it was good and noisy and we often opened gigs with it!

Denis: “Walk Alone”, when it worked, was the one in which I felt we were most together.

Tony: I have one we never recorded as it had a life of its own, it was called Vague Traces and existed with no exacting structure. I again refer back to time limitations, given a wild expanse it could’ve flown into something extraordinary.

I also have another which we never really nailed, Raintown! A bit more time, a key change and who knows. It possible had the strongest structure but we didn’t have time to add the beautiful finish.

++ What about gigs? Did you play many?

Mark: Yea, a good few. Do wish now, in retrospect, that maybe we should have gone over to London to play, just to experience it.  

Cathal: A good few – We did few support slots in the Underground and at least one headline gig there. Also did a good few support slots the Baggott Inn and one memorable headline gig on 4th July which saw us come on stage to Jimi Hendrix’s version of the Star Spangled Banner.  I remember it as one of our better gigs.

Denis: We played quite a few, but we never had a regular slot, so looking back, it was a hard graft to hire a venue, advertise it, get the gear in before actually playing. And then get the gear out and starting arranging the next one.

Tony: We played a fare few, some good some bad. I think Mark and Cathal have detailed these extensively.

++ You mentioned that there were Hot Press band competitions gigs in Cork. How did you fare in them?

Mark: We played it once in 1988. We were robbed!

Cathal: We played two years in a row 88 and 89 I think. It was exciting to go on the road as we hadn’t played outside Dublin.  We didn’t win on either occasion but we put in a good performance in 89 as I recall. We were playing a fairly demented version of Alex Chilton’s No Sex in the set at that stage and I remember having a drunken in depth conversation with an audience member about that.  The audience was bigger than any other gigs I remember.  As I recall we also had an altercation with one of the other bands – can’t remember what it was about but most likely about the backstage beers!

Denis: We should have won; we were robbed. Particularly the second one.

Tony: It was a great experience to play in Sir Henry’s in Cork City, I’m still unsure how we ever managed to ship us and all our gear down there in a Renault 12, it was a minor miracle and as Mark says, “We were Robbed”.

++ And what were the best gigs in general that you remember? Any anecdotes you can share?

Mark: We did a gig on the 4th of July in the Baggot Inn, I remember that as being amazing. And that’s the way I will always remember it. 

Cathal: The 4th July gig in the Baggott was a good one – we had decent songs and were a fairly tight unit by then.  We played a version of Patti Smith’s Dancing Barefoot in most of the sets with a medley of other tunes including Gimmer Shelter in it and I especially loved that.  We also played a reunion gig in 2003 (I think) in the Sugar Club (the other side of Stephen’s Green from Windmill 2!) and that was a good night – mix of the tunes from the Soundcloud page and covers – Driver 8 (REM), Wide Open Road (Triffids), State Trooper (Bruce) and Creep (Radiohead).

Denis: I don’t think it was our best musical moment, but we somehow got into a Battle of the Bands in one of the distant southern suburbs of Dublin. I think it was a church hall, and there was an attempt by the people running the event to limit alcohol consumption. Having none of this, we proceeded to get pissed on beer we had brought in with our gear, played out set and expected to get thrown out. Instead, we won the competition. We felt we’d raised some hell.

Tony: 4th July, Baggot Inn. Everything clicked. I remember irritating numerous Trinity college students as I stuck up posters in the archway of the College in the days leading up to the gig, they weren’t too pleased with the American flag design and staged a political protest there and then.

++ And were there any bad ones?

Mark: Yea. But let’s move on. 

Cathal: Oh yeah!  Remember playing to a handful of people upstairs in the Earl Grattan – the gig wasn’t bad per se but the attendance was a bit demoralising!  Still it’s the kinda thing that happens to all bands I suppose.

Denis: Quite a few, no doubt, but not worth remembering.

Tony: All memories have been erased, bad make you get better.

++ When and why did Lipstick Vogue stop making music? Were any of you involved with other bands afterwards?

Mark: No, I think we all left it behind after that, really. I think we finished because we had other things that we wanted to do. Further education, jobs etc. 

Cathal: Around the end of 89 – was just a feeling that things had run their course.  I don’t recall anyone being in bands afterwards.  Tony did a course as a sound engineer but don’t remember anything beyond that really.

Denis: It began to feel like another job added to the day jobs we all had. The breakup was amicable, but it crystalized my decision to leave the post office and start filmmaking and eventually university. For me, some rehearsals with Niall Austin was about the only musical thing I was involved in afterwards.

Tony: No bands, I had a short-lived dalliance with sound engineering which didn’t come to anything.

++ Was there any interest from the radio? TV?

Mark: We got played on the legendary Dave Fanning Show on 2FM. That was the one show all the bands listened to and wanted to be on. 

Cathal: Think the Swimming Out of the Pool tracks got an airing on Dave Fanning’s radio show – he played alternative stuff and demos etc from Irish bands.  They also did sessions for bands but we didn’t do one of those.

Denis: Not really.

Tony: We got radio plays but no TV,

++ What about the press? Did they give you any attention?

Mark: Couple of reviews in Hot Press magazine. 

Cathal: Some reviews in the Hot Press for gigs/Swimming Out of the Pool/demos.  Maybe a notice in In Dublin too – a listings magazine at that time.

Denis: We got some coverage in Hot Press but felt we should have got more as we drank with them in the International Bar.

Tony: The legendary Bill Graham reviewed us in The Irish Press after seeing one of our gigs and compared us to Television!! That was either a highlight or a dream! I’m sure it happened.

++ What about fanzines?

Mark: No. I don’t remember fanzines being a big thing in Dublin. But maybe I just wasn’t interested. I only read the NME.

Cathal: Can’t say as I recall fanzines in Dublin at that time – would have been a small scene for them during punk I think but not much after that.

Denis: I wasn’t really aware of a big fanzine scene at the time.

Tony: I’m afraid not, we might have been to early for that bus.

++ Looking back in retrospect, what would you say was the biggest highlight for the band?

Mark: Probably that 4th of July gig. And getting a couple of tunes out on vinyl. And just having three great mates and a small band of followers who were all great people to be around.

Cathal: Getting songs released, those 2 gigs I mentioned above and so many after gig nights drinking and talking nonsense with guys who are still good mates to this day.

Denis: Recording-wise, probably the Windmill Lane session. Gig-wise, the 4th July Baggot Inn or the second Hot Press gig in Sir Henry’s.

Tony: Getting those two tracks on vinyl, that was special. Not discounting all the good memories.

++ Aside from music, what other hobbies do you have?

Mark: I think we were all interested in cinema and other areas of the arts. 

Cathal: While I don’t play I still collect music and listen to a lot so that takes up a fair bit of my spare time.

Denis: Going to the cinema, swimming in the North Atlantic.

Tony:Travel, reading, gardening, walking, cinema and arts in general.

++ I’ve been to Dublin once and really had a good time there. But still I’d love to ask a local. What do you  suggest checking out in your town, like what are the sights one shouldn’t miss? Or the traditional food or drinks that you love that I should try?

Mark: I think the best thing about Dublin is to enjoy it without much of a plan. See where it takes you. Have a Guinness. Have fish and chips from Burdocks in Christchurch. I’m afraid the live music scene is nothing like it used to be. But do go to a trad music session.

Cathal: Lots of good pubs – away from the tourist trail of Temple Bar etc.  The Long Hall, the International Bar, Grogans, Idlewild – all around the Georges St/Grafton St area. Just wander around and that area and see what you fancy.  If you’re venturing outside the city centre do the Glasnevin Cemetery tour and have a pint in the Gravediggers! As far as music goes there are still plenty of venues – the Workmans, Whelans and the Grand Social have a mix of local and visiting bands. Have a look to see what’s on in the Olympia – lovely Victorian theatre which recently hosted Wilco (Mark was there) and the likes of Paul Weller, Jason Isbell.

Denis: The Dublin pub remains an important institution. Have a sneaky pint in the middle of the day. The city has become much more ethnically diverse since the 1990s and has many good restaurants that reflect this; areas like Parnell Street or Stoneybatter are worth visiting for this reason.

Tony: After all the Guinness and fish dinners that have been suggested take a long walk down Dollymount strand and clear your head.

++ Anything else you’d like to add?

Mark: Thanks for showing an interest! Keep up the good work!

Cathal: Not really- was a nice trip down memory lane alright.  Always nice to hear someone enjoy the songs.  Thanks for the mention and look forward to reading more on the Cloudberry blog.

Denis: Thanks for asking and invoking the memories.

Tony: I think that it. Thanks for showing interest and liking the music we but out.

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Listen
Lipstick Vogue – River’s End

26
Sep

Thanks so much to Donald Larson for the interview! I had written about the superb New England band Flower Gang in the blog some time ago, and I was surprised when Don got in touch. Flower Gang was part of that scene that included legendary bands like Small Factory or Honeybunch and released two records that I highly suggest tracking down if you haven’t already.

Now join me in discovering more details about them!

++ Hi Don! Thanks so much for being up for this interview! How are you? Are you still involved with music?

Hello! The last gig I played was the Flower Gang reunion show in 2012. I am currently retired from the music business but I still play my banjo at home regularly. My love of music and records has never faded and I am an obsessed 45s collector. I spend much of my free time digging for rare rockabilly, soul, surf, garage, girl group and bubblegum 45s at flea markets, yard sales, junk shops, estate sales, etc.

++ Let’s go back in time. What are your first music memories? Do you remember what your first instrument was? How did you learn to play it? What sort of music did you listen to at home while growing up?

I recall the first record I ever bought was a Queen “We Are The Champions/We Will Rock You” 45 when I was 6 or 7. I also have a vivid memory of going into a record store and being awestruck by the display for all four of the recently released Kiss solo albums a few years later. My first instrument was an inexpensive, no name acoustic guitar that I received as a birthday present when I turned 14. I took guitar lessons on and off throughout my teens with a handful of local guitar teachers. I gleaned valuable things from each of them that all came in handy when I started wrtiting songs and playing with others. My parents were not big music fans but they were very supportive of my musical interests.

++ Had you been in other bands before Flower Gang? What about the other band members? Are there any songs recorded?

My first proper band was Laverne. We formed when I was 18 in 1988. We were a trio with me on guitar and vocals, Alec K. Redfearn on bass and Art Tedeschi on drums. We played a handful of shows but did not do any recording. My next band was called Wavering Shapes, which also featured Alec on bass, Rick Ross on drums and Jamie Brolin on vocals (Bill Reed replaced Jamie on vocals and second guitar towards the end of our tenure, Art Tedeschi returned to his rightful throne on the drums and future Flower Gang drummer Matt McClaren joined us on additional percussion). We recorded a 4 song demo on a friend’s 4 track cassette recorder but I am unaware of any surviving copies. We played frequently at AS220 in Providence. Concurrent with Wavering Shapes, Alec and I started another band with Jen Dollard (guitar and vocals) and Phoebe Summersquash on drums (pre-Small Factory) called The Big Wazoo. We played one show in Providence and broke up. Matt and Jack had a pre-FG primitive Misfits/Horror garage combo called Mole People.

++ How was your Mansfield/Plainville at the time of Flower Gang? Were there any bands that you liked? Were there any good record stores? Or what about the pubs or venues to go check out up and coming bands?

Mansfield and Plainville are small, adjacent towns about 15 miles north of Providence, RI. There weren’t any other local bands in our immediate area that played even remotely similar music (mostly metal bands doing Anthrax and Metallica covers) with the exception of nearby Attleboro punkers Neutral Nation. They were a great band who showed me it was possible to be from the uncool burbs but still play original, left of the dial music. There was a good record store just one town away in Foxboro called Good Vibrations. They were a Mass based chain that had 8 or 9 stores and were the only local resource for punk, post punk and indie records.

++ How was the band put together? How was the recruiting process?

Wavering Shapes broke up when Alec K. Redfearn traded his bass for an accordian and began his lifelong journey as a critically lauded composer and band leader (Space Heater, Amoebic Ensemble, Alec K Redfearn and the Eyesores, D.U.M.E, SWRM, etc). I had already played with Matt in Wavering Shapes so we snagged Matt’s buddy Jack Hanlon as our bassist and Flower Gang was born!

++ Was there any lineup changes?

We added Erin Sharicz on vocals before recording our double 7″ for spinART but otherwise our lineup was stable during our existence.

++ What instruments did each of you play in the band?

I played guitar and sang, Jack played bass and sang and Matt played drums.

++ How was the creative process for you? Where did you usually practice?

We practiced in the basement of my parent’s house in Plainville, Mass. I was 20 when we started and Matt and Jack were still in their teens.  I usually worked up some ideas on guitar in my bedroom and then we would flesh them out and see where they took us during band practice. It was a collaborative process. We were quite dedicated and rehearsed 3 or 4 times a week.

++ What’s the story behind the band’s name?

As I mentioned earlier, the local scene in Plainville/Mansfield was mostly metal cover bands. Our initial plan for Flower Gang was to play impromptu acoustic sets in the parking lots of local American Legion/VFW hall metal shows under the name “Hairy Diarrhea” (an idea that sadly never came to fruition). When we had an opportunity to play a local “battle of the bands” event, we chose the wimpiest, least metal sounding name we could muster and it stuck. We embraced our outsider status as the only indie/punk rock band in Plainville and did our best to antagonize the locals.

++ Your first release was the “Guys with Glasses” 7″ that was released by Boy Crazee Records. My first question has to do with this label. Was it yourselves running it? Or who was behind it?

Boy Crazee was our label and “GWG” was our only release. We recorded that record before we had ever played a show. It was the first time any of us had been in an actual recording studio and it was a hurried, bewlidering experience. I’m just glad some of our energy and youthful enthusiasm came through on the recordings. Matt was going to school at Emerson College in Boston at the time. He ditched class one day, went to the Boston Public Library and found an Olympia, Washington phone book. He found Calvin Johnson’s phone number, called him and asked if K would distribute our record. Calvin obliged and also helped us get distribution in the Netherlands via Semaphore (which explains why you can find numerous copies of that record for sale on Discogs from the Netherlands).

++ This release came with sleeves in different colors, orange, red, blue, green and yellow. Why was that? And am I missing any other colors?

No, you have not missed any colors! I think that the lady at the local print shop gave us that five-different-colors option and we thought it was a fun idea.

++ Another thing that caught my attention is that you are listed as Dan, not Don or Donald. How come?

I have copies of the yellow, green and blue covers and I am listed as Don. I’m unsure what color cover you have but perhaps it was a typo on that particular color cover.

++ This is a great record and has great songs. One song that I was curious about was “Matt’s Dilemma”. Is it about the band’s drummer Matthew Edward McLaren?

Yes, that was one of our earliest songs and was written by Jack as an homage to our drummer complaining about feeling parched.

++ Later you would sign with spinART Records in New York. How did that happen? Did you send them demos? They came to see you at a gig? And how was the relationship with this label?

The spinART guys saw us at the Providence Indie Rock Explosion in 1992 and liked what they heard. It was a three day indie pop festival organized by Dave Auchenbach from Small Factory and local promoter Ty Jesso. I can’t recall everyone who played but I know that Small Factory, Honeybunch, Magnetic Fields, Velocity Girl, hypnolovewheel, Love Child, Belly (their first show), Tsunami, Versus, The Swirlies, Dambuilders, Fudge and Lois Maffeo all performed. Flower Gang broke up shortly after our spinART record was released so our relationship with them was brief but amicable.

++ With them you released a double 7″ record, “Junkdrawer”. Of course I am curious about the format, doing a double 7″ is not common, probably a 10″ or a 12″ would be a more normal approach.

I was a huge fan of the Fastbacks and loved their “The Answer Is You” double 7″ release on Sub Pop. In addition to tipping our hat to the Fastbacks, we all thought it was a unique format that might help garner some attention.

++ And yeah, who is on the cover photo of this record?

That is my nephew Matty on the cover. The gatefold inner is a painting by Matt McClaren and the photo on the back is Jack’s father.

++ On this record there are vocals by Erin Elizabeth Sharicz. Was wondering if she was in another band or how did she end up collaborating with the band?

Erin was a fan and friend of the band. Flower Gang was her first and (I believe) only band. I was obsessed with Talulah Gosh and wanted to have female vocals on some of the songs. She sang on a handful of songs but sadly only “Shiny Grease” and “McNutt” were recorded.

++ You mentioned that you appeared on the “AS220 1992 Compilation”. I see that this one is online these days, but can you tell me more about this release?

AS220 was (and still is) a non-juried performance space in Providence. It was essentially a compilation of bands who regularly performed at AS220. It was a cassette-only release recorded by Joe Auger at AS220 and holds up as a unique document of Providence area musicians from that time and particular place. I first went to AS220 in the spring of 1988 on a whim and serendipitously happened upon the first ever Honeybunch performance opening for Beat Happening on the Jamboree tour. It was an impactful experience and I soon became an AS220 regular most weekends.

++ My favourite song of yours is “Metzger’s Farm”, wondering if you could tell me what inspired this song? What’s the story behind it?

That song was inspired by walking around my old baseball field at age 20 and remembering how it feft playing little league baseball as a kid. The baseball field was across the street from the farm that provided the song title.

++ If you were to choose your favorite Flower Gang song, which one would that be and why?

Of the songs we recorded and released, “Metzger’s Farm” is probably my favorite.  It’s super catchy and has that spastic-but-still-locked-in-a-groove energy of the early Minutemen recordings (my biggest inspiration). We were pretty prolific. I would guess that our recorded output was only about 20% of what we wrote and performed and I wish we had gotten more of our songs on tape.

++ What about gigs? Did you play many?

We played every chance we got. In addition to AS220, Club Babyhead (formerly the Rocket) in Providence was one of the places we played often. We opened for Ween, Uncle Tupelo, Yo La Tengo, King Missle, Velvet Crush, Jad Fair, Sleepyhead and even a freakin’ King Diamond cover band at Club Babyhead. The band we shared the most gigs with was small factory. Our sounds weren’t that similar but we started around the same time and we turned out to be a pretty good fit musically and personally. We also really enjoyed renting out American Legion halls and playing truly local shows in Plainville and Mansfield.

++ And what were the best gigs in general that you remember? Any anecdotes you can share?

We played a poorly attended but fun Sunday matinee show opening for Grant Hart’s Nova Mob at Club Babyead. We hung out with him after the show and when he found out the club stiffed us on our fee, he paid us out of his pocket. We were all huge Husker Du fans and having that kind of interaction with one of our heroes was memorable. I also vaguely recall a wild, drunken, ramshackle show at Wheaton College in nearby Norton, MA with small factory and Love Child that ended with our booze confiscated by campus police and the student from the college radio station who organized the show having her booking-on-campus-shows privileges rescinded.

++ And were there any bad ones?

We were scheduled to play with small factory and Heavenly on their first US tour at Club Babyhead in Providence. I was a huge Talulah Gosh fan and was psyched to be on the bill. However, Gang of Four had a night off from the Lollapalooza tour (or some similar shit) and wanted to play a club date so they were added to the bill and we were kicked to the curb. I still attended the show and Heavenly did not disappoint but it was a major bummer to get bumped from that bill.

++ When and why did Flower Gang stop making music? Were you involved in any other bands afterwards?

We started sometime in the fall of 1990 and called it quits in the late spring of 1993. After we broke up I spent a few years learning to play the 5 string banjo in the Old Timey Clawhammer style. After focusing on writing and playing original music for years it was refreshing to learn how to play roots music in a traditional style. I played banjo with StringBuilder from Providence for a few years in the late 90s/early 2000s. We released two 7″s and a CD on a local label (Handsome Records) and did one memorable two week tour. A few years later, Joel from StringBuilder formed a new project called Death Vessel and I played banjo, uke and guitar on his Sub Pop debut “Nothing Is Precious Enough For Us” and joined them for three U.S. tours supporting that record. Jack Hanlon found much greater success than Flower Gang ever attained with his next band Amazing Royal Crowns. Matt teamed up with our old friend and Wavering Shapes bandmate Alec K. Redfearn in the Eyesores (who I also played banjo with sporadically over the years). Both Jack and Matt blossomed into amazing musicians and are still actively playing.

++ There was a reunion gig in 2012 supporting Small Factory and Honeybunch! What a lineup. How was that gig? And what prompted you to reunite?

There was a brief resurgence of interest in indie pop music from the early 90s around that time. I think Slumberland Records did a series of well received reunion shows with some of the bands on their label and that planted the seed. Dave from Small Factory asked us if we wanted to do a reunion show with them and Honeybunch and we agreed. A Small Factory/Honeybunch/Flower Gang bill was something straight out of Providence circa 1991 and it was a fantastic, very well attended night.

++ Was there any interest from the radio? You did a session at WFMU, right? How was that?

We did live-on-the-air sessions at WSMU (Southeastern Massachusetts University)) and WRIU (University of RI) that were lots of fun. We also recorded (not on the air but strictly playing live in one take) at the WERS studio (Emerson College) where Matt was a student. I’m unsure if any copies of those Emerson recordings still exist but they were the best example of what we sounded like live back then.

++ What about the press? Did they give you any attention?

The local press was very kind to us despite our relative youth and often snarky demeanor. Mike Caito was the local music writer for the Providence weekly arts rag The NewPaper and he gave us a fair share of favorable ink in his columns. We played an outdoor block party in 1993 organized by Providence subversive bookstore Newspeak that was reviewed by Creem magazine (the writer seemed smitten by our “Association style power pop”). I think we got reviewed by a few fanzines but I can’t remember any details.

++ Looking back in retrospect, what would you say was the biggest highlight for the band?

Just being three young, awkward guys with glasses from the uncool burbs who formed a band that put out a few 7″ records and made a minor impact in Providence was quite a thrill.

++ Aside from music, what other hobbies do you have?

As I mentioned at the start of the interview, I am an avid 45s collector. I don’t consider that a hobby – it’s more like a disease for which I never hope to find a cure. When I’m not obsessively digging through boxes of unsleeved 45s in some rando’s garage or basement, I can be found reading, hiking or spending time at the beach with my wife and partner in crime Anya.

++ Anything else you’d like to add?

Thank you for posing such thoughtful questions and taking an interest in Flower Gang. It was fun remembering what it was like to be young and playing in an indie rock band in a pre-Nirvana, pre-internet world.

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Listen
Flower Gang – Metzger’s Farm

12
Sep

Thanks so much to Andy, Andrew and Colin for the interview! I’ve been a huge fan of The Decemberists of Liverpool for so long. I think the first time I heard them was thanks to my friend Jessel who shared with me the track “Gift Horse” and I was blown away. That must be more than 15 or so years ago.

Since that time I had wanted to interview them. And even though I’ve been in touch with Andy on and off for years the interview never happened.

But hey, the wait is over now. At last I get to know more details about this fantastic band that you wonder how come they weren’t huge!

Also do check the interview I did with Andy about Hellfire Sermons, the band he was in after The Decemberists, many years ago, and Swim Naked, the band before The Decemberists!

++ Hi Andy, first of all I won’t call you The Decemberists of Liverpool. For me you are The Decemberists and the other band that came later and is more popular can suck it. They are not as half as good as you were. But let’s start this interview. It was 1984 and you start The Decemberists. Who were the members and how did you knew each other? 

Andrew: The original members were:

Colin Pennington – Guitar/Vocals, Andrew Deevey – Lead Guitar. I didn’t know the other members of the band as I answered an advert to join the band. Andy Ford – Bass and Tom Gent – Drums.

Andy: Originally – Andy Ford Tom Gent and Andy Ford from Swim Naked, and Colin Pennington from Tunnel Users

++ And why did you choose the name The Decemberists?

Colin: Think it was one of the early guitarists is my recollection it was based on pre Russian revolution revolt?

Andy: They were the first Russian revolutionaries, 1820s, and were exiled to Siberia. I seem to remember 4 names going into a hat and the ones I can remember were ‘The Generals’, ‘The Green Wallpaper’ and ‘The Decemberists’. We pulled out one of the others and everyone said “No, let’s have the Decemberists”!

Andrew: When we were thinking of a band name there were a lot of bands around at the time whose name ended in ‘S’ and described a group of people such as The Comsat Angels

++ Tell me a bit about the two bands that you all were previously in, Swim Naked and Tunnel Users?

Colin: The Tunnel Users were more a live band but did release one single the double A side Dance b/w Sun arise dub. It was shite tbh but they were a fun group of people.

Andy: Swim Naked were me and Neal Carr and Tom Gent on drums, and others, played 2 or 3 gigs in Liverpool, a couple of favourable reviews of our demo. It was sort of Joy Division/Cure/Velvet Underground. A CD was put out last year in memory of the singer, Chent, as he died young. CD is called ‘We Are All Singers’ and it’s on Amazon, I-tunes etc. Neal went to The Lids (girl singer/acoustic guitar stuff,) then Jenny Lind.

++ You played extensively, lots of gigs. Which ones are the ones that you remember the most and why?

Colin: Yes the ULU gigs, the Pyramid supports inc James and the Bangor gig for all the wrong reasons. We’d quite often do a truncated set which was a punchy way of ‘leaving our mark’.

Andy: Our first gig was actually The Cavern in Mathew Street, to about a dozen people at lunchtime – June 1984. We played lots of Liverpool gigs – one place called The Venue you ended up playing with 3 bands you had never met before, usually terrible. Some of them were trying to be the new Frankie Goes To Hollywood, or else Duran Duran – in a flea bitten Liverpool backstreet club… We had a good poster for Kirklands and we stuck up loads of posters round town, got the name known. I remember the Otterspool Peace Festival in a tent, Mardi Gras in Liverpool January 1985 was great (with the Membranes) but ended in a huge argument with the venue about money. Supporting James was memorable – they were strange – requested no alcohol in the gig area, and at that time they played the songs differently every time they played. They were really special then, far better than later incarnations. The Neptune in support of Liverpool City Council (November 1986) went down really well and it was recorded. I was listening to it the other day.

Andrew: I remember the London gigs as being the most exciting the University of London and especially the Rock Garden in London as it was like a mini Hacienda back then plus there were lots of people there to see us.

++ You recorded great demos that attracted interest to John Peel and Rough Trade. First of all, how many demos did you record in total? Which songs were included? And how come you didn’t get a proper release?

Colin: Can’t remember Andy you’d have this info. I do remember trailing round the record companies and meeting dickhead A & R men who said things like there’s – the songs have too many choruses

Andy: First demo was with Karen Jones – Upwards From Here/ Good Man/This To That and it was pretty good. Me and Colin made appointments with various record companies. You sat there and they listened to one verse and the chorus of the first song, and that was it, that was your chance. Some said nice things about the harmonies – “Come back in 6 months lads” one said, but at Rough Trade Geoff Travis said it was excellent potential, and he would help us play in London and that’s how we got the ULU gigs.

Andrew: The demos that we recorded were.

Upwards from Here/From This To That/A Good Man – recorded at The Inevitable Records Studio, Liverpool. 02 September 1984

This Town/Simpler To Say/For Just One Instant – recorded 02/03 and 05 February 1985 at The Pink Studios, Liverpool.

Always Caught in The Rain/Bush Recorder/What Possessed You – Recorded at Station House Studio, New Brighton

There It Is/The Man Who could See Through Everybody – Recorded at Vulcan Studios, Dock Road.

James Is on 15 July 1985/Gift Horse/Up In Marble Room – Recorded at SOS Studios, Liverpool.

Freak Storm/Rachel Clean Single completed 20 December 1987

We didn’t get a proper release as we couldn’t afford to release anything ourselves as we were students, unemployed or in low paid jobs. We were hoping that some record company would help us out but it didn’t happen.

++ You did appear on a couple of compilations, right?

Colin: Over to you Andy

Andy: There was ‘James Is’ on Discreet Campaigns and Gift Horse on ‘Ways To wear Coats’ with the other Vulcan Studio bands – Half Man Half Biscuit, Jactars, DaVincis. Then later on every now and then Decemberists songs went on various indie compilations.

Andrew: The Decemberists appeared on:

  • Discreet Campaigns – James Is
  • Ways to Wear Coats ( A Vulcan Street Compilation) Gift Horse

++ I read that none of you could buy the Discreet Campaigns tape. Is this true? Well I think that was true- I had a copy but gave it to someone at a venue.

Andy: What happened was it came out and we didn’t get a courtesy copy, and we were actually quite poor – unemployed, on benefits etc. Colin did buy a copy at Probe, and then gave it to someone at a venue trying to get a gig, who promised faithfully to give it back..and of course didn’t. So for literally 30 years no-one had a copy. I eventually got one in 2020. The cassette sold well, especially in the US, as it had New Order on it and we did get some fan mail for James Is.

++ So who is this James from “James Is (Still the Same)”? Was it based on a real character?

Colin: Yes a lad I knew at school- he was a twat- lack of empathy and human compassion- and I met him years later and he was still the same…… I chewed round James is ( Still a cunt) but hmmmm maybe not

++ Some time ago you posted the FABULOUS “Simpler to Say”. I was gobsmacked. You really know how to make great pop songs I thought. Care to tell me the story behind this great C86 nugget?

Colin: Thank you its lovely that the music still has some impact.

Andy: The bass and guitar have some jazz influence, it has no middle 8, but it does have an end bit which has a bit of ‘Ceremony’ by New Order in there. The vocal harmonies are what people like. Plus it’s short!

Andrew: From my perspective, The Smiths were around at the time and I liked the way Johnny Marr played a bit different to everyone else – picking the notes rather than strumming. We didn’t want to be a band were both guitarists were strumming the same chords so I developed a style were I’d pick the notes over a strummed chord back ground. We were also discovering more elaborate jazz type chords like major and minor sevenths typical of what you would find with The Smiths and Aztec Camera.

++ And of course the only other song I’ve had the chance to listen has been “Gift Horse”. It’s also fantastic. It’s hard for me to believe no one released these great tracks. Have you ever thought about doing a retrospective CD? 

Colin: Yes Gift Horse is a banger.

Andy: I have been going through the demos and gig tapes, its about 30 songs, and we will release them it just depends which songs. There is half an offer in from an indie label to do it.

Andrew: There have been offers from record enthusiasts that release music must it just never materialised.

++ Tell me about this residency you got at the University of London Union? How did that work?

Andy: We got ULU through Rough Trade, they were really good for us – a big audience, good sound system and being paid! And a crate of beer. We played well. Couple of years later Andy Deevey was recognised in the street as “one of the Decemberists”. On ‘Man Who Could See Through Everybody” he bent the neck of his guitar to get a big WAH sound. People loved it.

++ There’s a point were lots of people join The Decemberists. Karen Jones joins as backing vocals, Roger McLoughlin on drumsand even a new manager, Jackie Gribbon. How did all of this affect the band and what did they bring to the table?

Colin: Karen we brought in to beef up the vox- we could see from some of our influences the impact of the vocal harmonies. This has stayed with us into the Hellfires I think.

Andy: We found Roger for drums through an advert after Tom left, Karen Jones was with us January to August 1985, Roger left to travel the world in November 1985, and Chris Harrison joined us from Jenny Lind (Neal’s band of the time). Jackie had managed Del Amitri but they froze him out when they got a record deal. He moved from Glasgow to Liverpool to manage us which gave us a certain status in Liverpool. The first Del Amitri album is genius – top lyrics, and the music, far better then their later stadium rock efforts.

Andrew: Roger McLouglin was a drummer brought in to replace Tom Gent who left to concentrate on his Architecture Studies. Karen Jones was brought in to beef up the vocals as we had a phase of developing harmony vocals and trying to sound like the Mamas and Papas. Jackie Gribbon came to help manage us and get us to the next level. He was good at Artwork and Photography.

++ What about those days at Vulcan Street studios. What do you remember hanging out with so many creative bands? Any anecdotes you could share?

Colin: We had a great laugh and there were significant artistic developments for us as a band. There was some good relationships and competition between the bands many of who we would share gigs.

Andy: Vulcan was very friendly – the owner Barry was just a music fan, and the bands down there were similar – unemployed young creative people. We tended to play most with The Jactars because firstly they were musically excellent and secondly nice sane people. But we also played with the Da Vincis and Jenny Lind, and went to see The Room, Half Man Half Biscuit, Innocents Abroad and One Last Fight. It was a scene without us knowing it. The friendly competition with Jenny Lind spurred us on. Tog from The Jactars worked there a lot. Vulcan was this disused warehouse on the Dock Road, parts of it had no roof, one floor was full of pigeons…it was a one off. I went past the other day and it was great to see a load of scrawny youngsters stood outside.

Andrew: The bands of note that I can remember from Vulcan Street were The Jactars, The Davincis and Half Man Half Biscuit. Nigel from Half Man Half Biscuit worked behind the desk and used to tell us lots of tales about weird things. Tog from the Jactars used to work the night shift and we’d have to wake him up so we could drop off our equipment to our lock up at 3am.

++ So what happened, why did you decide it was time to move on and change names?

Colin: I think we felt we’d flogged the Decemberists as much as we could and thought a name change might help. Andy D had decided to leave us and head to London. We asked Neal to join which brought a sharper more angular sound to the Hellfires.

Andy: I wasn’t sure why at the time, but looking back I think we lost confidence. You have to remember at that time it was so difficult to release your music. You had to be let in by the gatekeepers at the big record labels (or an indie). After we changed the name we found out that people had been going into Liverpool HMV asking if The Decemberists had released a record. Chris went to college, Andy Deevey moved to London, and so me and Colin linked up with Neal and formed a band called ‘The Know Nots’ for a few months, then Freak Storm got a great review and we started to be offered gigs – but only if we played as Hellfire Sermons. It worked out OK!

Andrew: There was still some life in The Decemberists name but ultimately all bands run their course. We had gained some notoriety in Liverpool and should’ve released the Freak Storm single under the Decemberists name. The B side ‘Rachel Clean’ should have been the A and the A side ‘Freak Storm’ was a new song that was recorded too quickly – I was trying to write my guitar parts in the studio as I was recording them! We’d never played it live before.

I moved to London to see if I could get into some bands there and tried out with lots of bands such as The La’s and Pete Shelley. I’d always loved The Buzzcocks but they say don’t meet your heroes so I didn’t turn up! Anyway the Buzzcocks reformed a few months later. I ended up in a band called ‘The Caretaker Race’ whose frontman was Andy Strickland of The Loft fame. He’d started the band after the acrimonious split of the band onstage at The Hammersmith Odeon on The Colourfield Tour. The Caretaker Race were signed to Steven Streets’ ‘Foundation Label’ and helped us record the Hangover Square album.

++ I was thinking, when you formed there was no C86 or indiepop. Having being around before and after that defining tape, do you feel things changed for guitar pop bands or not?

Colin: Well C86 was very influential – We were on the cusp of getting on C86 which really would have helped us to a wider audience. I think we’d become a bit cynical about the music industry by then. Yes I feel that guitar pop became very popular although guitar pop probably peaked with Brit pop, Oasis, Blur, Suede etc. There’s still great guitar bands out there but it seems harder t break through- although rap/ hip hop are way bigger than it used to be in the 80’s. BBC radio 6 still invests lots of time in UK in guitar music.

Andy: C86 just recognised something that was massive at the time – not in sales, but in bands, gigs, venues and record labels. It was what people wanted to see in a live environment. A lot of the bands were a ripple effect from The Smiths – bright guitar pop, anti-macho pop star bullshit, thoughtful, good lyrics. The tape kind of legitimised it. And in turn built it. Creation Records came from that scene. So it was influential, and still is.

++ I haven’t been to Liverpool yet, I should go next time, I’m actually, when it comes to Premier League, a fan of Liverpool FC, so… Anyhow, aside from Anfield, where else would you recommend visiting?

Colin: Liverpool FC are shite btw. If you’re going to Liverpool hit the museums, go to the Albert dock, Baltic Quarter for culture, food, drink, live music. Lots of good places to drink/ eat out in City centre. Sefton Park and Lark Lane is great to hang out.

Andy: Liverpool is great to visit. If you came (or anyone else) we would take you down the Dock Road with all its warehouses, Vulcan Street, the docks and ships, and the dock wall built by Napoleonic prisoners of war, then into town to The Lion Tavern (we always go after practice) then up the hill to The Everyman bistro and The Philharmonic pub (with its historical toilets)

++ And what about eating? Where do you think they make the best scouse in Liverpool? and what about butties?

Colin: Ma Egertons.

Andy: Maggie Mays on Bold Street, Ma Egertons by Lime Street station I have also heard said as good scouse. It’s a very nice food (if it’s made right)

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Listen
The Decemberists – Gift Horse

30
Aug

Thanks so much to Neil and Nigel Packer for the interview! I wrote about the London late 80s, early 90s, band Lobster Squad on the blog some time ago. I had discovered a trove of great recordings on Soundcloud and I was very curious about the band. They hadn’t released anything and there was very little information about them on the web. Luckily, Neil contacted me a few weeks ago and was keen on doing the interview. Best of all, both brothers answered the questions!

++ Hi Neil and Nigel! Thanks so much for being up for this interview! How are you? Are you still involved with music?

Neil: Very good thank you Roque although it feels a little strange to be talking about Lobster Squad again after all these years. I am no longer involved with the playing of music but I still listen to a great deal of it.

Nigel: I still love music, but I haven’t played the guitar regularly for years. Once or twice in recent years Neil and I have rented a rehearsal studio with friends for a jam session, but that’s about it.

++ Let’s go back in time. What are your first music memories? Do you remember what your first instrument was? How did you learn to play it? What sort of music did you listen to at home while growing up?

Neil: My earliest memories of music would be from about the age of 5 and of listening to my parents’ record collection. This would have been about 1966 / 1967 and it was probably not the most hip selection of vinyl from that period, but to the 5 year old me they were magical, James Last, The Fiddler on the Roof and The Music Man soundtracks, Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass, and best of all was a record by a Columbian Band “Los Corraleros de Majagual, Y Sis Estrella’s” that my father had brought back from a trip there. In addition to these there was the endless cycle of Library music from the tv test cards and children’s programmes. To this day I still adore all of these things.

By the age of 11 I was  buying and listening to Glam Rock, and by the end of secondary school it would have been Prog Rock, I started art school in 1977 the year that The Sex Pistols released God save the Queen, but contrary to popular myth Punk Rock didn’t sweep aside everything that had gone before, or at least it didn’t for me. I loved it dearly but I was also exploring and listening to other music from the 60s and from the folk, classical and jazz world.

By the time I moved to London in the early 80s I was listening to and trying to make much more experimental music of my own, noodling around with old tape recorders and broken radios to try and create ever more weird sonic soundscapes but with no real understanding of musical theory. About this time Nigel and I began writing, (although I use that term very loosely) more conventional songs inspired by the fledgling indie scene in the UK and these songs would become the backbone of early Lobster Squad.

My first instrument was a guitar, I got it when I was about 6 and thinking about it now it was a pretty shoddy instrument. It had an action like a suspension bridge and even for my older slightly more accomplished self it would have been unplayable. I discovered however that you could slide a bottle up and down the fretboard, bypassing the awkward frets which made a pleasingly rich and plaintive sound that I had perhaps subconsciously heard somewhere previously. This was after all 1966 and the tail end of the British Blues Revival.

By the late 70s I had upgraded to a more playable guitar and I taught myself how to use the fret aspect of the instrument using Bert Weedon’s play in a day. We all did, didn’t we?

Nigel: I was born in 1966, so my earliest musical memories are of listening to pop songs from the very late 60s/early 70s on the radio. I also had a few children’s records – my favourite was called Sparky’s Magic Piano. I also remember a lot of great theme tunes from children’s television programmes, such as White Horses, The Magic Roundabout and Robinson Crusoe. The Banana Splits TV show was also a favourite.

My first instrument was a snare drum, followed by a toy keyboard. When I was in my mid-teens I got a second-hand drum kit which was a fantastic purple colour. I played drums in a covers band with two schoolfriends, but we never played any gigs.

I was originally more interested in playing the drums than guitar, but I eventually began playing around on an old acoustic guitar of Neil’s. I learned to play some chords from a teach yourself book – Bert Weedon’s Play In A Day (in reality it took a lot longer). I was given a copy of The Beatles’ songbook when I was about sixteen. Some of the chords were very difficult to play, but it did at least get me thinking about how songs are structured.  I began to work out chord sequences to songs by other bands and started writing my own songs when I was about seventeen.

The first band I really fell in love with was Slade. This was when I was about six or seven-years-old. I used to watch them on Top of the Pops and loved their showmanship, plus Noddy Holder’s singing, of course. The next band I became a real fan of was Queen, around the time of Bohemian Rhapsody. The first album I ever bought was News of the World a couple of years later. I got into The Beatles, Stones and The Who during my teenage years, along with Jimi Hendrix, Free, Bob Marley, Pink Floyd. I also liked a lot of contemporary bands at the time, such as The Jam, The Specials and Human League.

For a while I was into heavy rock bands (Led Zep, Deep Purple, AC/DC, Rush) and prog bands like Yes and Genesis. At that time I didn’t really think about forming a band, because the musicians I was listening to were completely out of my league. That began to change when I started to get into indie music (Joy Division, New Order, Husker Du, The Jesus and Mary Chain). I realised that it was possible to make interesting music without being a virtuoso musician. It was all about putting chords together in pleasing ways. I loved the sense of melody in many indie bands, and the home-made, DIY quality of their music.

I started writing songs when I was listening to a lot of REM and The Smiths, which can be heard in Lobster Squad’s sound.

++ Had you been in other bands before Lobster Squad? What about the other band members? Are there any songs recorded?

Neil: Lobster Squad was my first and only band. There were many band members who came and went, some of whom had been in bands slightly higher up the food chain, but I don’t recall anything significant.

Nigel: In the early 80s, Neil and I used to record stuff on a tape recorder at home under the name of The Piles, but it was quite experimental and I’m not sure they could be called songs in the usual sense of the word. By the late 80s we were writing songs more seriously.

We were living in a pretty dull suburban town, and so there wasn’t much to do beyond making music. We didn’t really know any musicians at that time – especially playing indie music. Indie was more of a niche movement back then and not the dominant force it became in the Britpop era.

When we moved to London the isolation ended. There were many people around with the same taste as ourselves. Most members of Lobster Squad had been in bands previously. We were always meeting other musicians in London – it was a very fertile time for music.

We do have some other songs recorded, other than those on SoundCloud. We will try to track them down.

++ Where were you from originally?

Neil: The first stirrings of Lobster Squad happened in Essex. We were the classic example of a “bedroom band” thorough most of the mid to late 1980s. We only started playing together live as a proper band after Nigel moved to London in ‘88.

Nigel: We moved around a lot when we were children, as our dad worked for BP and was constantly being given new postings. Neil lived in the West Indies and Libya, but that was before I was born. In the early years of my life we lived in Oxfordshire, Grangemouth, Swansea, Hertfordshire and then Oxfordshire again. When I was eight we moved to Chelmsford in Essex, which is where the family settled for the next ten years or so. It was a typical suburban commuter town, about thirty miles from London. I worked for three years on the local newspaper – the Essex Chronicle – before moving up to London to work on a business magazine. Neil was already living there. It was then that we decided to finally start a band.

++ How was London at the time of Lobster Squad? Were there any bands that you liked? Were there any good record stores? Or what about the pubs or venues to go check out up and coming bands?

Neil: London was an extraordinary place to be trying to forge a musical career or indeed any other career in the arts at that time. Every second pub in London seemed to be a venue for upcoming bands, probably a legacy from the flourishing Pub Rock scene of the 70s, in addition to pubs there were multiple dedicated music venues of every size and catering to every genre. I recall seeing what I believe was Sonic Youth’s first UK gig at Thames Polytechnic, which was one of many colleges in London to host multiple gigs every week, and at one point I was probably going to 5 gigs a week. These venues are well documented elsewhere and too numerous to mention here, but I would have frequented to a greater or lesser extent well over 100 different London venues over those years.

Rather sadly though most of them no longer exist and going back over the few venues Lobster Squad actually played it appears that none of those exist anymore.

Record shops though, having gone through a similar decline to the point where there were only a handful of very specialist ones left in London are now going through something of a renaissance thanks largely to the revival of vinyl amongst the younger generations. There is still a thriving music scene in London and of course things change but I am not sure that the grass roots scene is quite as vibrant as it once was.

Nigel: It was an exciting time to be in London. There was a really strong music scene with lots of thriving mid-sized venues, such as the Powerhaus in Islington, The Mean Fiddler in Harlesden, the Town and Country Club in Kentish Town, to name just a few. This was in addition to the big venues like the Hammersmith Odeon and Wembley Arena, and (at the other end of the spectrum), local pubs which would regularly stage gigs. I went to gigs pretty regularly and saw lots of great indie bands, (The Smiths, REM, James, The La’s, The House of Love), plus music from many other genres – including Lou Reed and Van Morrison. There was a growing interest in world music at the time and lots of big names would play at venues like The Africa Centre. I always loved the melodic, joyful guitar playing of musicians like Diblo Dibala, and tried to incorporate at least some of that sound into what we were doing.

Rough Trade and Reckless Records were among the best record stores in London at the time, and there was a great world music record store called Stern’s which I often visited. Living in North London, I also went to Camden Market for second-hand records and bootlegs.

++ Were there any other good bands in your area?

Neil: My local underpass was latterly renamed Joe Strummer Subway as it was his busking pitch prior to The Clash. More local than this still, my flatmate and old art school buddy Paul was playing with a band called Bastard Kestrel who at the time were getting a fair bit of attention, (he later joined Lobster squad as our first drummer). Our next door neighbour was Rob McKahey the drummer from “Stump” who were by our standards incredibly successful having produced multiple singles, made TV appearances, videos, an album and toured with the likes of Husker Du. You couldn’t move in our small patch off the Edgware Road at that time without bumping into someone from an upcoming band or forging a career as an artist or a writer of some kind. It was a wonderful place to live before it gentrified and had its life blood sucked out of it.

Nigel: There were lots of very good bands in London, most famously around Camden. I knew plenty of people in bands, but none that were especially famous. One of our drummers, Mike Johnson, once played in a band that supported The Clash, and he even slept on Topper Headon’s couch. As for Lobster Squad, we used to practice at a rehearsal studio in Holloway, and Suede were sometimes practising next door. We listened to them through the wall but we didn’t ever meet them.

++ How was the band put together? How was the recruiting process? You were brothers? related?

Neil: Myself and my brother Nigel probably had 40 songs between us by the time we got around to actually recruiting anyone else. It was really a case of who do we know that can play this or that and shall we ask them to join. In 1989 my friend Paul became our first member, he was actually a guitarist but we needed a drummer and he quite liked the idea of being a drummer for a while. It actually worked out well and though he wasn’t particularly fancy he did keep very good time and he was reliable. That is pretty much how it was, people in the band or friends would recommend someone they knew when someone would leave.

++ Was there any lineup changes?

Neil: Oh god yes! Probably way too many. There was a pretty rapid turn around and people would leave out of frustration mainly. I can’t honestly blame them as progress was undeniably slow and the administration was utterly chaotic. In the 7 years we were actively playing as a band (by coincidence the same amount of time that the Beatles were together) we went through 13 different members.

Nigel: Lots, to the extent that each demo was effectively recorded by a different band. It was a pretty fluid line up. The only thing that remained unchanged was Neil and myself.

++ What instruments did each of you play in the band?

Neil: I played Bass and Nigel played Guitar. We started as a three piece with Nigel singing but then found a female vocalist who sang with us for a couple of years. After that we always had female vocalists as the female voice seemed to suit our songs better. However because of the multiple line up changes it felt like we were continually teaching someone the old songs or worse still having to transpose songs and re-learn them ourselves. There were some songs we learnt in 4 different keys in order to accommodate various singers.

Nigel: At first I was lead vocalist and guitarist, Neil was on bass and backing vocals and Paul was on drums and backing vocals. We then found a great singer called Sheila South (who was recommended by a friend). She sang on the second (Westbourne) and third (Camden) demos. On the Camden demo Paul switched to rhythm guitar and we had a new drummer (Mike Johnson – a friend and work colleague of mine). On the Croydon demo we had a different line-up (Eleanor on vocals and keyboards, Mike Morgan on drums and Ian Delahaye on saxophone). These new members of the band were influenced by various other genres, including jazz, funk and reggae, which is why this demo sounds quite different to the earlier ones. It was a fusion of several genres. Later still our friend Kathy sang with us, and a very old friend of ours – Steve – played keyboards. We did record a few songs together with that line-up but they are not featured on SoundCloud. We will try to find them.

++ How was the creative process for you? Where did you usually practice?

Neil: The bulk of the songs on SoundCloud were Nigel’s but I would contribute songs as occasionally did Paul. These would sometimes arrive at the rehearsals fully worked up or sometimes just as ideas with individual parts and arrangements worked out during rehearsals. We had weekly rehearsals initially in Airwave studio Kilburn (not to be confused with Air Studios in Hampstead). It was a damp basement but conveniently located under an off licence. Later we moved to the marginally better rehearsal space at Westbourne studios, and finally ended up in a rehearsal studio in Holloway. This we knew must be good because even though it was still damp with a powerful smell of urine, beer soaked carpet and spliff about it, the now very famous indie band Suede were regularly rehearsing in the slightly better appointed room next door to us.

Nigel:I would write songs on my own at home and Neil did the same. We then took the band through the songs at rehearsals. Sometimes we would suggest particular lines for each instrument, and at other times we would work on the arrangements together as a group.

++ What’s the story behind the band’s name?

Neil: It comes from (the pre cancelled) Woody Allen masterpiece, Annie Hall.

Nigel: We went through several names (Cusp, Maroon) but Lobster Squad was always the best received.

++ The first thing that caught my attention is that you didn’t get to release any records. How come?

Neil:Sadly nobody asked us to. It might have helped if we had had better contacts, or if one of us had even a vague idea of how to go about getting label interest. Looking back now it would probably have been a good idea to have found a manager as there were very few paths into the business proper at that time. None of us were natural born networkers and I for one was far more interested in producing strange backwards noises on my ancient recording devices than trying to brown nose my way into a record company.

Nigel:It was a really good era for indie music. There were many bands around, some of them excellent, and it was always a challenge to get noticed among the crowd. With hindsight we should have found a manager, as none of us were very good at plugging the band. We tended to focus entirely on the music without really thinking about how to get ourselves noticed.

++ Was there interest from labels at any point?

Neil:Absolutely none! Probably by the early 90s the indie labels which had served bands very well since the Punk era were now growing into more corporate concerns themselves or being bought up by the giants. This was pre internet of course, demos were very expensive to make and there was no guarantee anyone would listen to them. Now at least you can throw something out there yourself and hope it gets some attention.

Nigel:We sent one or two of our demos to record companies. One of them gave us some reasonably good feedback, but they didn’t think it was strong enough to sign us.

++ You did release demo tapes. From what I understand the first recordings date from 1988. Recorded at Canvey Island. Is that correct? Where thee two songs “Out of My Life” and “Pimlico” the first ones you recorded?

Neil:They were the first songs we recorded on 4 track. We had at that time about one and a half C90’s filled with recordings I had made in the bedroom with Nigel. These were very rudimentary and were bounced down multiple times between 2 or more slightly naff tape recorders but I became quite adept at recording from one tape to another without too much loss of quality. However they existed essentially as sketches to potentially be worked up later and as neither of us could really read music it was the best way of remembering them. The Canvey Island tape was a step up from that…slightly.

Nigel:It was the first time we had recorded properly on a four track machine. Before that we had recorded songs on twin cassette recorders, which allowed us to do some overdubbing. These cassettes sounded pretty muddy, though, so it was nice to get a clearer recording.

++ And what do you remember from recording at the small town of Canvey Island? Why did you end up recording there?

Neil:We were of course aware of Canvey Island’s illustrious musical pedigree with its Doctor Feelgood R&B and Pub Rock connections, but in truth the reason that we recorded there was because Nigel knew someone there who owned a 4 track recorder and a drum machine and who was willing to spend a day recording with us for no payment whatsoever. My main recollection was that it was an insanely hot day and that we were locked up in the first of what would be many small hot and stuffy rooms to come, but with enormous levels of excitement and enthusiasm at the idea of making a “Proper” recording.

Nigel:I remember it was a very hot summer’s day. We were recording in the living room of a friend, who owned the four track machine and produced the recording. He had a pet rat living inside his sofa which would pop up occasionally during the recording.

++ In 1989 you would record a 5 song demo tape at Kilburn Airwave. How was that experience? Were you more confident than the previous recordings? Did you use a producer?

Neil: We were at least a proper band who had been rehearsing together for a few months by the time we made this recording. The studio was effectively the rehearsal space which we had been using and on the day of the recording an engineer appeared, unlocked a door hitherto unnoticed and ushered us into a small space containing the mixing desk and a tape machine. The recordings were pretty much done live which worked very well as at least we knew the room. We recorded and mixed 5 songs in about 6 hours, a record that would stand until the band’s demise.

This particular demo got us our first gig at the much missed Haven Stables in Ealing (now an estate agents) ugh! They asked if we could do a 45 minute set for them the following week, to which I lied “yes that’s absolutely no problem at all” knowing that we only had 20 minutes of material rehearsed. There followed a frantic few days of working up new material and expanding some old stuff.

Nigel: We were definitely more confident at this point. It was probably the most smooth-running demo we ever made. We seemed to get everything right in one or two takes. With the other demos, it took us much longer to record something we were happy with.

++ One thing I noticed is that you have a song called “Lobster Theme”. What inspired you to create a theme song for the band?

Neil: Why would a band called Lobster Squad not want a song to play at the start of a gig called “Lobster Theme”?

Nigel: We always liked the way The Monkees had their own theme song, and so we thought that we would have one as well.

++ You continue recording demos, in 1991 at Westbourne Rehearsal Studios. I start to wonder then what was your favourite recording studio and why?

Neil:Westbourne was a good rehearsal studio and it had a very good recording facility. I think it even had a Soundcraft Desk which you wouldn’t necessarily guess from the recording. Cost wise it was probably a good deal, as we were rehearsing there every week and got to know the people who ran it, but mostly it was nearby and handy for all of us.

Nigel:Westbourne was a great place to record because we rehearsed there every week, and we knew the sound that we wanted for the recording.

++ Then are demos recorded in Camden and Croydon in the following years. You seem to have been all over the place recording. Was it because of the price? Or what made you explore so many studios?

Neil: The studio in Croydon belonged to our then sax player. It was in his basement and absolutely minute, we were a 5 piece at the time and could with some degree of tessellation just about fit in together with our instruments, but it was free and we had limitless time there which was probably its main attraction.

I think the constant searching for a decent recording studio was partly born out of frustration. Recording a Demo was a very expensive exercise and you would be allocated an engineer who had never heard your band before and who clearly wanted to be somewhere else. Their main objective was to get the recording process over with as quickly as possible, and to this end they would invariably suggest that all the instruments were directly inputted into the mixing desk stating that this would help with the separation which is of course true, but at the same time killing the very sound that you had striven for years to achieve. The sound of a room with vibrating molecules blasting from your own amplifier, precisely modulated from the settings which you had carefully and finely balanced to work in harmony with everyone else’s dynamics within the band. The results were universally dead and with not a hint of a live room or space within the finished recordings. I would say most of our recordings are victims of that.

In the very late years of the band I acquired and taught myself to use a 4 track recorder and began to record rehearsals. These were some of our better recordings but are now inaccessible as my 4 track recorder sadly died before I managed to digitise any of it.

Nigel: It was largely down to the changing personnel. The Croydon demo, for instance, was recorded at the home studio of Ian – who had joined us as saxophone player on the recommendation of one of the other band members. Price was also a factor – it was very expensive hiring a studio and an engineer for the day. I think with hindsight we should have recorded in just one or two studios, as it would have cemented our particular sound. As it was, the demos all sounded quite different to each other.

++ A song that was recorded in many versions was “Pimlico”. Was this area of London important for you in any way?

Neil:I think I was very briefly dating someone from Pimlico at the time which might be why it appears, but equally it might just be name checked because it rhymes with the word “Know”. Lyrics were never my strong point.

++ Are all of the songs on Soundcloud your recorded output? Are there more songs by the band?

Neil: There are many more but they are not in a well enough recorded or finished state to be aired, not that I am entirely sure that the songs on Soundcloud are quite polished enough either.

Nigel: We have one other studio recording, from about 1996, which features the final line-up of the band playing two new songs. I also recorded two or three other songs with our singer – Kathy – on a four-track I had bought. There are also some live recordings which hopefully one of us still has somewhere.

++ You had enough songs for an album perhaps. Wonder if you ever consider putting together some sort of retrospective album?

Neil:Yes that would be interesting. We still have all the masters from the demos we made and I would love to re mix them properly now that I understand that process better and perhaps even retrospectively apply some pro tools to them to get back to what we might have sounded like at our best.

Nigel:In total we had about forty songs (including some cover versions) which were of varying quality. Looking back, I wish we had recorded a greater variety of songs on the demos, rather than focus on different arrangements of the same five or six songs.

It would be great to put together a retrospective album, ideally using the original demo recordings. We have master tapes, so they could be remixed. Although the recordings aren’t of the greatest quality, they do capture a moment in time, and have an authentic late 80s to mid-90s sound, which I think would be difficult to replicate with current technology. These were in the days long before auto-correct, so there are a few mistakes here and there, (we are even slightly out of tune now and then), but hopefully this just adds to their character.

++ And there were no compilation appearances, right?

Neil: No none sadly.

++ My favourite song of yours is “Up to You”, wondering if you could tell me what inspired this song? What’s the story behind it?

Neil: Best that Nigel answers this question as it is one of his songs.

Nigel: It is a song about someone famous and their struggles with loneliness and depression. It’s not about any one person. When I wrote it I was thinking about various tortured film and rock stars (James Dean, Montgomery Clift, Janis Joplin). I have always liked songs which have an upbeat and cheerful melody juxtaposed with rather dark lyrics, and that was something I was trying to achieve with this song. It is one of the first songs I wrote, when I was about nineteen or twenty.

++ If you were to choose your favorite Lobster Squad song, which one would that be and why?

Neil: Probably Summer Will Soon Be Fading. It stayed in our set for the whole time we were together, it is a fairly minimal arrangement and it had an easy but very memorable bass riff which drove the song. Dancing around the same handful of notes was a catchy vocal melody and the chords shifted around the whole thing bringing it different colours. I could probably still play it now 30 years later without even thinking. it was beautifully simple but quiet beguiling. Lobster Squad, as do so many other bands, started to over complicate songs as we gradually became relatively better musicians and managed to somehow lose the joy and freedom of those early songs. I still think the early songs were among our best and “Summer” was a very early one.

Nigel: Summer Will Soon Be Fading is one of my favourites. It always seemed to be well received at gigs.

++ What about gigs? Did you play many?

Neil: Not a great many, we would play a couple of gigs as a particular line up then someone would leave and we would then need to get a new member up to speed before going through the whole getting a gig process again. We never really got to the point where we were gigging so regularly that we could actually rehearse less.

Nigel: Not a huge number, but we played at a variety of venues, such as the Powerhaus in Islington, the Bass Clef in Hoxton, the Rock Garden in Covent Garden, Haven Stables in Ealing and the White Horse pub in Putney. Sadly, most of these venues have long since closed down.

++ And what were the best gigs in general that you remember? Any anecdotes you can share?

Neil: Some of our early gigs stick with me as particular highlights. My favourite was at the much missed Rock Garden (now an Apple store) ugh! I remember having just come off stage when a guy approached me and said I think I recognise you! Pointing in the direction of the stage I proudly said yes I was in the band that just played, he replied were you? oh I didn’t notice, but I think I saw you yesterday at the Hayward Gallery which was true as I had been there, and that was the nearest brush I ever had with fame. We made £20 that night and that was the only money Lobster Squad ever made so all in all it was a very successful night for us.

Nigel: The Rock Garden was our second gig, there was a decent-sized crowd and our music went down pretty well. The last gig we played was for twenty or so friends at a rehearsal studio in Holloway. It was a really nice occasion, and we didn’t realise at the time that it would be our last performance.

++ And were there any bad ones?

Neil: Yes a terrible one at the much missed Powerhaus (now a building society) ugh! One of the band (who will remain nameless) was very, very late for the soundcheck meaning we only had about a minute to get levels worked out. We were pretty miserable at this and decided to go back to our singer’s flat for some refreshments. She lived only about a 15 min walk away. Rather stupidly we took our guitars with us on a bitter snowy February evening. We got back to the venue and went straight on stage and spent the next 30 minutes battling with our expanding metal strings as our instruments came to terms with the 40 degrees difference between a wintery Islington evening and an extremely hot stage. The resulting experiment in alternative random tuning in front of a live audience did not go down well.

Nigel: The Powerhaus gig had the biggest crowd we ever played to. There were several hundred people there, although most had come to see one of the other bands., Unfortunately the guitars slipped out of tune without us noticing. We couldn’t hear clearly what we were all playing (we didn’t get a proper soundcheck) so we didn’t sound at our best that night. It’s a shame because it was a great venue.

++ When and why did Lobster Squad stop making music? Were you involved in any other bands afterwards?

Neil: I think in truth it just run out of energy sometime in 97. Nobody actually said it’s over but at some point a rehearsal was not booked for the following week and nobody seemed to object or even notice.

Nigel: We stopped making music altogether in1997. Neil and I had been working on the band for about seven or eight years and were both now in our thirties, and we felt that it was time to move on to other things. It is quite challenging, keeping a band together through various line-up changes, and we had probably had enough by then.

++ Was there any interest from the radio? TV?

Neil: Yes once. We had a very good drummer who was a dear friend of mine and for a about a year he played with us. He eventually left the band and moved to Lodz in Poland as an English teacher. He was very quickly absorbed into the music scene there and given a radio programme of his own on radio Lodz playing mostly Reggae, which at the time was huge in Poland.  On one of many trips I made to Poland he interviewed me as a fellow ex band member and played one of our songs which had a definite reggae vibe in its final incarnation. That was the only Radio airing to my knowledge that we ever got.

Nigel: The band predated the internet by some years, so it was almost impossible to get music heard by the wider public without the support of a record company or radio stations. YouTube and SoundCloud etc have completely changed the landscape and greatly increased the possibility of directly reaching an audience.

++ What about the press? Did they give you any attention?

Neil: No but I did get a photograph I took of a friend’s band published in the NME once.

++ What about fanzines?

Neil: No our genius seemed to have bypassed all of them too. I did actually consider starting one once just so we could be in it, but that is probably how most fanzines begin.

++ Looking back in retrospect, what would you say was the biggest highlight for the band?

Neil: There were many highs throughout the years particularly in the early days when rehearsals and gigs sometimes felt more like a primal scream session than work and the sheer joy of playing together when it was all going well meant that the tensions of the week would melt away. I don’t think there were any of us who wouldn’t have given up their day jobs if we had got the call from the A&R person but it wasn’t to be. But then there you are, a tiny footprint that hitherto barely existed in the history of rock and roll, so thank you Roque for giving us back a small voice.

Nigel: The best part of being in a band was rehearsing and working up songs every week. We had a lot of fun and laughs together, and there is something very liberating about being in that sort of creative environment. In terms of one particular highlight, I did enjoy the Rock Garden gig. I also loved making the demos, (I can’t really choose a favourite, they all have their strengths and weaknesses). It was great to have something tangible at the end of the day after all the hard work.

++ Aside from music, what other hobbies do you have?

Neil: Drawing and I did manage to turn that hobby into a 40 year long career as an illustrator.

Nigel: I like reading, mostly fiction, and creative writing. I had a novel published in 2015, called The Restoration of Otto Laird. I also enjoy watching sport (football, cricket) and visiting museums and galleries. I’m very interested in archaeology, but I haven’t been on an excavation for some years.

++ I’ve been to London a couple of times and really enjoyed it. But still I’d love to ask a local. What do you  suggest checking out in your town, like what are the sights one shouldn’t miss? Or the traditional food or drinks that you love that I should try?

Neil: I very much have a love hate relationship with London these days, I have always lived in Paddington / Marylebone, and I currently live only about 10 mins walk from my original flat near the Joe Strummer underpass (now closed due to structural issues). Marylebone is not what it used to be and any vibrant, bohemian creative spirit it once had has long gone, driven out by abject wealth. Soho, Ladbroke Grove and Camden have fared a little better but you sometimes feel that they are still living off past glories. Having said that it is still an exciting city if you are young and my son who was born and bred in central London loves it. In the last few days alone he has seen Deerhoof play live at Kings Cross and has been to see Ligeti’s Requiem at the proms, it is still that kind of City for music.

My advice to anyone visiting is not to plan but to be a Flaneur, (the art of wandering aimlessly). London is a great city to practice this art as it will still throw up surprises and joys which are hidden in the detail of the journey rather than the obvious destinations.

Lastly support the London pubs, most of which have extraordinary histories, before they are all converted into much needed luxury housing.

Nigel: There are loads of great museums in London, but one hidden gem is Sir John Soane’s Museum in Holborn. It is full of old artefacts and antiquities (sculptures, paintings etc). It’s also a short walk from the British Museum. One of the best things about living in London is the wide array of food from all over the world. It’s worth sampling as many as possible. Also, it’s a cliché but try a real ale in a pub. Beers from East Anglia are especially good.

++ Anything else you’d like to add?

Neil: To Quote Black Francis from Pixies, “I’ve walked the sand with the Crustaceans”. Thank you to the ladies and gentlemen of Lobster Squad, it was a pleasure playing with you.

Nigel: I agree – happy days.

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Listen
Lobster Squad – Up to You

23
Aug

Thanks so much to Paul ‘Baz’ Higgins for the interview! I wrote about the Leeds band Collapsible Deckchairs some time ago hoping to learn more details about them. I own the “William Shakespeare” 7″ and I think it is fantastic. So yeah, only natural to want to know more as there is barely any good info on the web about them. A few days ago Baz got in touch and was keen on doing this interview. I was thrilled. So yeah, I asked a ton of questions, and here are his answers!

++ Hi Baz! Thanks so much for being up for this interview! How are you? Are you still involved with music?

I’m not in a band any more. The last band I played in was “Bugwriter” back in the late 1990s. This was another band based in Leeds and played at similar venues to the Deckchairs. The biggest gig I did with Bugwriter was playing the “Breeze” festival in 1998 – this was at Temple Newsam which is a stately home on the outskirts of Leeds. We were second on the bill after Runston Parva (who later renamed as the Kaiser Chiefs and have had several hits in the UK – not sure if they are known in the US). Fellow Bugwriter band members were James Thorn (Guitar/vocals), Jon Gaskell (Keyboards/vocals) and Gary Green (Drums). Sadly, Bugwriter didn’t release any records. The musical baton has been passed to my son who is a music producer.

++ Let’s go back in time. What are your first music memories? Do you remember what your first instrument was? How did you learn to play it? What sort of music did you listen to at home while growing up?

I have 3 older brothers and so I grew up listening to Beatles (which was my two elder brothers’ favourites), but in 1976 got into punk (Buzzcocks, Pistols, Stranglers, etc) I was fortunate that quite a few bands visited Leeds so I managed to see Buzzcocks, Undertones, Ramones, Ian Dury & Blockheads, Boomtown Rats, Devo, Stranglers and Police in late 70s/early 80s

++ Had you been in other bands before Collapsible Deckchairs? What about the other band members? Are there any songs recorded?

Collapsible Deckchairs was my first band. Paddy Morrison and I started playing guitars together when we were about 15 or 16. We recruited Simon Masters (who we simply called “Masters”) on drums about a year later – he was 3 years younger than us. We did our first gigs when I was 17. In hindsight I’m surprised that pubs let us play, as Masters was only about 14…we only played gigs for about a year (1981 to 1982). We were probably most inspired by the Undertones – uptempo short songs, and not at all serious. In October 1982 I left Leeds for Sheffield University. However in 1984 me and Paddy decided to get back together to record the single (both songs on the single were regulars in our gigging days)

++ Where were you from originally?

Leeds

++ How was Leeds at the time of Collapsible Deckchairs? Were there any bands that you liked? Were there any good record stores? Or what about the pubs or venues to go check out up and coming bands?

There were a few bands at my high school. My brother Matt played drums in The Mess, together with Phil Mayne and Choque Hussein. Choque worked in Jumbo records which was the best independent record shop in Leeds at the time. Later, Choque formed “Black Star Liner”. My friend Luke Blumler played in The Gimmicks, and then went on to play in Mama Scuba. In the early 90s I briefly played in a band with him called “Kirk Out” He was a great drummer, and passed his musical abilities to his son Harvey, who is now in a EDM duo called Prospa. You can find them on Youtube/Spotify.

++ Were there any other good bands in your area?

One of the bands that played at some of the same venues as us in the early 80s was “Verba Verba”. We were a bit in awe of them as they were brilliant musicians and had fantastic songs. I’m surprised they never made it big.

++ How was the band put together? How was the recruiting process?

Me and Paddy were best mates at school from the age of about 9. We just started playing guitars together when we about 14 or 15. In 1980 we were looking for a drummer and we saw Masters playing in a band at a high school gig. The band were awful but he was great, so the next day at school I found him in the playground and asked him to join us, which he did.

++ Was there any lineup changes?

No

++ What instruments did each of you play in the band?

Masters played drums.

Paddy played guitar and sang and I played bass and sang, but for a few songs me and Paddy switched bass and guitar.

++ How was the creative process for you? Where did you usually practice?

Initially we practiced at Paddy’s home, but later we practiced in a local Church Hall.

++ What’s the story behind the band’s name? 

I genuinely can’t remember how we alighted on the name. I think we were just looking for something quirky.

++ From what I understand the label that released the only 7″ by Collapsible Deckchairs, the Mordent label, was yours. Wondering then what came first, the band or the label? And how was running the label? What was the best part of it and what was the worst?

When me and Paddy decided to release “William Shakespeare” we just thought up a label name. The “label” was really just us two. We arranged to get the record pressed and designed the sleeve. We only pressed 1,000 copies and it was mainly to sell to mates and at gigs. I expect about 500 remained unsold. I have no idea how it got a review in Spin magazine in 1985… Later, when I wanted to release “Bingo” and “Love is Blind” it made sense to use the same label name.

++ On this label you also released two more singles as far as I know, a solo record of yours, Baz Higgins, and another by the band A to Z + the Girl Guides. I have never heard these records. Sound-wise, were they close to the Collapsible Deckchairs or how would you describe them?

Bingo was a song I wrote that the Deckchairs used to play at gigs. I just fancied recording it, and decided to release it – its probably best described as a fast novelty song. Don’t think there’s any evidence of it on the internet other than a contemporary review – https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Record-Mirror/80s/85/Record-Mirror-1985-02-02.pdf.

A to Z was a two-piece band (me and Jazz Matharu). The backing group/dancers were called “the Girl Guides”. Jazz was another schoolmate who I wrote some songs with, and we ended up recording “Love is Blind” and “Alison” and releasing it as a double A side. We got Paddy Hogan to sing both songs because he was a better singer than Jazz. A to Z was cheesy 80s pop… You can find a very grainy film of Love is Blind on youtube – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-5QVwVwQX0

++ And there were no other releases on Mordent, is that right?

Correct!

++ Back to Collapsible Deckchairs, were the recordings on the 7″ the first the band had made? Or had you already been releasing demo tapes like many bands at the time?

We did a couple of demo tapes in 1981/2 at a small studio in Bradford – sadly I don’t think they exist anymore – we did a total of seven songs, all gleaned from our gig songlist. Song titles were: “Miriam”, “Fat”, “Dog Dead”, “Do the Deck”, “John’s Radio”, “Bali Hai” and “Tony Kell”

We also recorded three songs at a friend’s house (Mick Hayes) in 1982. Mick had a 4-track tape recorder. The songs we did there were all a capella, with the only accompaniment being a Casio VL-Tone (this was a pocket-synth from the era that doubled as a calculator – very strange). The songs we did were called “Smoking” “How to be successful in your job” and “I Met Her in a Pub”. We performed these 3 songs at gigs as a bit of a novelty.

++ The B side of the 7″ is “Ford Cortina”. I do wonder why dedicate a song to a car. Perhaps any of you owned this particular model?

Paddy wrote the lyrics to this one, so you’d have to ask him! The song isn’t really about a Ford Cortina, it’s just random thoughts…(“ Money comes and money goes, counting out your pennies on your fingers and toes, I walk round all day in the deepest slumber, and people have lived in houses for as long as I can remember”…) Paddy was always very creative with words and came up with some great lines. I think one night him and Masters were walking home from a pub and Masters was banging on about high-performance sports cars which Paddy found incredibly boring – hence the line… “When we we walk home under the stars, all you can talk about is custom cars, But that only makes me feel meaner – how’s about a brand new Ford Cortina”

++ On the 7″ you worked with Stuart Skinner who also produced The Darling Buds. Wondering how was the experience of working with him, what did he add to the band’s sound?

Stuart ran Vibrasound recording studio in Sheffield. I discovered the studio when we were looking for places to record the single. Stuart did the backwards drumming in the middle of “Shakespeare”. He was a great drummer and a great guy, who had been in “Mari Wilson and the Wilsations” who had a few minor hits in the UK in the early 80s. All the instrumentation on the single (apart from the backwards drumming) was done by me and Paddy. Stuart was also good enough to drive me and Paddy down to London when we went to get the record cut, at Porky’s which I think was somewhere in Soho. I got another friend called Paddy Hogan to sing on Shakespeare because he was a much better singer than me, although I did the talking bit in the middle. Paddy Hogan also sang on the A to Z single.

++ On the 7″ there were some guest musicians as well like Paul Stinchcombe on bass and Oonagh Stephenson on violin. Were they friends of yours? Were they in bands?

Paul and Oonagh were music students at Sheffield University. Although I played sax, I wasn’t great at it, and Paul was much better so we roped him in. I wanted some live violins on the single so we got Oonagh for that. Paddy played a bit of violin, but again, not as good as Oonagh so we used her for the record.

++ The record is so good that I do wonder how come there were no other releases by the band? No compilation appearances either?

Very kind of you to say so. We did consider a follow up release but by 1985 I was finishing uni, Paddy was busy working, and Masters was in another band called “Paris in the Fall”. We’d all just gone our separate ways – as you do in life at that age.. I ran a small recording studio in Leeds for a couple of years between 1986 and 1988 and Masters’ band came in to record some tracks there.

++ Are there still unreleased songs by Collapsible Deckchairs?

Only the rough demo recordings mentioned above.

++ My favourite song of yours is “William Shakespeare”, wondering if you could tell me what inspired this song? What’s the story behind it?

I think it was a result of doing English “O levels” when I was 15/16 and we had to study Shakespeare and I was bored stiff.

++ If you were to choose your favorite Collapsible Deckchairs’s song, which one would that be and why?

We had a song called “Dog Dead”. Paddy wrote the lyrics and they were surreal. As I recall the first verse was “Got to get – Shot the pet – Undertaker came and saw. Goggle eyed, dropped his jaw, said he could do no job. Red he blushed – big slob, three-piece pinstripe, collar snow. Big black car, shiny wheels. Sorry business, got to go”. That was probably my favourite. However, the most popular song at our gigs was “Miriam”

++ What about gigs? Did you play many?

We probably only did gigs for about 12 months from June 1981 to July 1982. Not sure how many in total, but maybe 20.

++ And what were the best gigs in general that you remember? Any anecdotes you can share?

The Pack Horse in Leeds was a favourite because it was very small and intimate. In terms of anecdotes – Masters’ powers of recuperation were legendary – we were supporting the Red Guitars in Hull in 1982 and 5 minutes before we were due on stage he was unconscious under a table having downed a few pints of cider (he was only 15 at the time). Somehow, he raised himself and played faultlessly for 40 minutes before crawling back under the table.

Red Guitars were an indie band who had a few minor hits in the UK – my brother Matt played drums for them. They recently did a reunion tour in the UK, and they re-released their song “Good Technology” – you can find it on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c7vhY2-PFE

++ And were there any bad ones?

Probably, but I don’t remember (or choose not to!).

++ When and why did Collapsible Deckchairs stop making music? Were you involved in any other bands afterwards?

After Collapsible Deckchairs I played with A to Z (see above). At Sheffield Uni I formed “Sax Maniacs” who did a few gigs at Uni venues. I also played bass in “Gatecrashers” which was a big band (Glenn Miller-style). Later on I played in Bugwriter (see above).

Paddy Morrrison founded a surf punk band called The Hodads in the early 90’s. Gigging in London and around London on this kind of surfy/60’s / Hawaii/Tiki vibe. Stand up drummer Josh Fratshack, female vocals Queen Badfanny, Dick Dale style guitarist Kev Taylor, Paddy on bass + vocals. Did a single : The Big Wave. They also did an album at Toerag Studios, Shoreditch with Liam the BBC engineer gone rogue with Abbey Road original live valve set up. But this was fully mixed and then the studio used the master for someone else and lost the final mix. So it’s the mystery album that only  cassettes was made for the bassist and be the guitarist. These allegedly no longer exist according to the drummer and the vocalist who relocated to Germany after living on money stolen from NCP car park machine fraud involving £4m

++ Was there any interest from the radio? TV?

No!

++ What about the press? Did they give you any attention? I did notice that Spin in the U.S. reviewed your single, do you know how that came to be?

No idea how Spin got hold of it. We didn’t do any marketing at all We weren’t business-minded – we just wanted to make music.

++ What about fanzines?

Possibly but I don’t recall

++ Looking back in retrospect, what would you say was the biggest highlight for the band?

Playing live was always the biggest enjoyment.

++ Never been to Leeds so I want to ask a local. What do you  suggest checking out in your town, like what are the sights one shouldn’t miss? Or the traditional food or drinks that you love that I should try?

Leeds is a fairly big town in Yorkshire, Northern England. Its not very historic, so not many great sights although Royal Armouries museum is worth visiting and the Town Hall and the Corn Exchange are good examples of Victorian architecture. There is great countryside nearby in the Yorkshire Dales. There is a fairly large Indian/Pakistani population so you can get very good curries. In pubs there are the usual traditional English beers.

++ Anything else you’d like to add?

Thanks for getting in touch – all these events are from 40 years ago so my memory is sketchy. I’m a bit amazed that anyone still listens to the single, but delighted that they do. I have lost touch with Paddy Morrison and Masters over the years, but I will try and contact them to see if they have any other memories.

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Listen
Collapsible Deckchairs – William Shakespeare